Up Front by Emma Hart

Read Post

Up Front: Mmmmmm, MMP

43 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 2 Newer→ Last

  • Mikaere Curtis,

    I'd like to take a moment to thank Peter Shirtcliffe: we couldn't have done it without him. That's one of the things I really like about the Kiwi psyche: any time someone spends obscene amounts of money telling us we're stupid, we really like to tell them to get stuffed.

    And getting his daughter to front it was so laughably transparent.

    I was so glad when MMP won. I'll never forget Rod Donald rubbing Shirtfcliffe's nose in it when discussing the 54%/46% result. He pointed out that if the referendum was decided using FPP by electorates, then MMP won 70/97(?) seats. Pwnd !

    Tamaki Makaurau • Since Nov 2006 • 446 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB,

    if the referendum was decided using FPP by electorates, then MMP won 70/97(?) seats. Pwnd !

    I didnt recall that myself.... but it is indeed GOLD. :)

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 786 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    And getting his daughter to front it was so laughably transparent.

    I was never quite sure how that was supposed to work. I guess they thought they had issues with being a bit 'rich white man' and Shirtcliffe's associations with big business weren't going down too well. So they got her in, and she turned out to be even more arrogant and dismissive than he had been.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4328 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Michie,

    So, if National win the election, proceed with their promise to hold a referendum on MMP (and assuming FFP would no longer pass muster), what would you folks vote for..?

    I'd stay with MMP myself: Not perfect but simple to explain compared to other systems (as I've been paid to do some elections).

    Auckward • Since Nov 2006 • 543 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Anderton isn't really an MMP beneficiary though, these days. He's basically a one-off independent MP. You could see him being an overhang this time.

    If I lived in Wigram, I'd be wondering what to do with my electorate vote - Labour, probably, but would the National candidate have a better chance of unseating Anderton?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4359 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    what would you folks vote for..?

    Firstly, I think it's more or less a fair system and shouldn't be messed with. Especially by a party that really wants to entrench itself by going back to FPP and stealing the Maori seats to boot.

    However I'd suggest in order of radicalism:
    - Removing the dual vote, so that a voter's party vote went to the party of their electorate choice.

    - A fairly complicated (in the counting, rather than the voting stage) system of my own devising; involving a single vote, multi-member electorates and a proportionality adjustment. This would retain local representation, remove two-tier MPS and allow Maori (and any other non-regional) electorates without sacrificing fairness.

    - A plain list system with no electorates

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4359 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    So, if National win the election, proceed with their promise to hold a referendum on MMP (and assuming FFP would no longer pass muster), what would you folks vote for..?

    MMP. I like our messy dictatorship, even if it is difficult to describe to Australians.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1625 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    However I'd suggest in order of radicalism:
    - Removing the dual vote, so that a voter's party vote went to the party of their electorate choice.

    I know people have had a go at this idea before, but I do think it's all drawback and no advantage. What's it supposed to do? Apart from stop independents standing for electorate seats and give people's votes to parties they don't support? If, for instance, we'd lived in ChCh central last time round I'd have given my electorate vote to Tim Barnett. I still don't vote Labour. Vote-splitting is a feature, not a flaw, and one Kiwis don't seem to struggle with.

    Some of the things I like about our system aren't wedded to MMP. I like the fact that we vote on weekends not weekdays, and I really like the ban on campaigning on election day. Watching Australians run the gauntlet of 'helpers' handing out 'how to vote' cards gives me the heebies.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4328 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    I like our messy dictatorship

    Wow, that's some verbal slip-up. I was intending to say democracy, and had just chucked the comparison with executive dictatorship...

    Clearly, more coffee is in order.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1625 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Michie,

    Heh. As opposed to our clear dictatorship under FPP...

    Auckward • Since Nov 2006 • 543 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    MMP. I like our messy dictatorship, even if it is difficult to describe to Australians.

    I would have thought that "being difficult to explain to Australians" would be an advantage of the system, if anything.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Raymond A Francis,

    Well I voted for MMP and doubt that we will go bacj to FFP but I would like another chance at fine tuning the system
    MMP while fairer does give parties that got under 5% more power that the loosing party that 35%-40% of the voters supported
    It is not a good way to run a country when that percentage of electorate are unhappy

    Would a prortional give a better result?

    45' South • Since Nov 2006 • 529 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    MMP while fairer does give parties that got under 5% more power that the loosing party that 35%-40% of the voters supported

    Hardly. it gives them exactly as much power as they can negotiate for. And if National bothered negotiating, rather than pouting and whining and stamping its foot whenever it didn't get its own way, maybe they could get some of it too.

    (Seriously. National has let opportunities to assemble majorities and amend legislation to suit itself go begging. If they're that stupid, then I say fuck 'em)

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1625 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    "If I lived in Wigram, I'd be wondering what to do with my electorate vote - Labour, probably, but would the National candidate have a better chance of unseating Anderton?"

    That is Marc (Cook me some eggs) Alexander ex-United Future.

    His claim to fame is having a slap-dash-mex-cross-over resturant before going into politics. I never got sick eating their but I sure got sick of it. Best feature was it was aimed at students and other noisey drunks to eat and not notice the slop infront of you.

    He panders to the self important property investers who have become landlords to the poor and treat them like serfs. They're over mortgaged and the market rents don't match their out goings, so short of any basic economics as well. Look for knee jerk over reactions and some poor family villified for his self promotion.

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    "If I lived in Wigram, I'd be wondering what to do with my electorate vote - Labour, probably, but would the National candidate have a better chance of unseating Anderton?"

    Bog, I meant to reply to that.

    Look at this. See the size of the swing it would take to unseat Anderton? He'd have to lose half his vote, all to one candidate.

    Last time round as an expression of futility I gave my electorate vote to Tom Dowie, on the grounds that it takes some gonadal fortitude to be the Alliance candidate running against Anderton.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4328 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Michie,

    The indicative referendum was between FPP, MMP, the Single Transferable Vote (STV), Supplementary Member (SM) or Preferential Vote (PV), but blowed if I can remeber the finer points of the latter two.

    Here's a comparison between FPP, MMP and STV (which many proportionality advocates preferred), although, as I said above, can be very confusing to explain to voters...

    Auckward • Since Nov 2006 • 543 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    I'd certainly stick with MMP- not perfect, but working...even with the Winnie Factor...waaaay better than FPTP

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Marc Alexander

    OMG. What is *wrong* with the place. Is SW Christchurch some kind of wierd fundamentalist NZ version of Kabul? Emma, do you have to wear a full chador when outside, or does a headscarf suffice?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4359 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I'd certainly stick with MMP- not perfect, but working...even with the Winnie Factor...waaaay better than FPTP

    Agree, but if there's a referendum I demand to be allowed to vote for HTTP.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    What's it supposed to do? Apart from stop independents standing for electorate seats and give people's votes to parties they don't support?

    It's a bias in favour of a one-person-party that has support in a concentrated area (Dunne, Anderton) over a genuine national party like the Greens. Ok, this would go away if there was no threshold - but I quite like not having Brian Tamaki or Kyle Chapman as MPs.

    (ok, I know they got nowhere near 0.8%, but that may be because people knew they had no chance and didn't waste their votes).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4359 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    It's a bias in favour of a one-person-party that has support in a concentrated area (Dunne, Anderton) over a genuine national party like the Greens.

    Ah, see, I also think this is a feature. So if a party or a person has a concentration of support in one geographical area - because of demographic quirks or genuine regional issues or WTF factor - they get a seat, maybe two. I would like to see the threshhold lowered though.

    I don't know what the answer is for how hard it is to get new parties represented. If Act were to lose Epsom and not make it over 5%, there'd be a gap for a genuinely hard-right party, as I think there is where the Alliance used to be. (Apologies to the several people I hugely respect still working their arses off for the Alliance.)

    What is *wrong* with the place. Is SW Christchurch some kind of wierd fundamentalist NZ version of Kabul? Emma, do you have to wear a full chador when outside, or does a headscarf suffice?

    Actually, 'chuck stuff down Emma's cleavage' is a popular party game still...

    I get the Big Questions. Wigram's a huge electorate. We live two blocks away from friends who are in Ilam - also a rock-solid safe seat, Gerry Brownlee's. One thing I have deduced about Chch is that it can be very small-c conservative. Once you get a seat, or a mayoralty, you can pretty much have it til you're sick of it.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4328 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed,

    If MMP gets thrown out, then STV is probably the best alternative. FPP is out of the question though, and for good reason.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4060 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    but I quite like not having Brian Tamaki or Kyle Chapman as MPs.

    (ok, I know they got nowhere near 0.8%, but that may be because people knew they had no chance and didn't waste their votes).

    Well, Brian Tamaki wasn't running so that counts him out, but in 2005 Destiny did get enough votes that Richard Lewis would have been elected were there no threshold.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 2988 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Huge? Not compared to the Australian Federal electorate of Kalgoorlie, which is basically all of WA except Perth. A requirement to be the MP there is a pilots license.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4359 posts Report Reply

  • dc_red,

    See the size of the swing it would take to unseat Anderton? He'd have to lose half his vote, all to one candidate.

    Not quite. Anderton's majority was 8548. He would only need to lose half of that, plus one (4275 votes), to the second-placed candidate, to be unseated.

    It would require 26.7% of Anderton's support going to the National candidate to cause this to happen (assuming all other votes stay the same).

    Given 's the National candidate in question is the odious wanker from UF (a party which makes a hobby of attracting odious wankers), that does seem unlikely.

    Oil Patch, Alberta • Since Nov 2006 • 706 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 2 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.