Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Democracy Night

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  • BenWilson, in reply to Sacha,

    That would reduce their ability to negotiate any concessions - and Turia said point blank yesterday that being in opposition offers them "Nothing".

    It might offer them a future. But why am I not surprised that Turia, who will retire, doesn't see that as anything? The question on my mind is how it will be seen by the long line of hui they have said they will be attending prior to making a firm decision. Is getting a small piece of a colossal round of asset sales really what the Maori Party is prepared to die in a ditch over?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    the MP

    Can we please not abbreviate the Maori Party like that. I always read it as Member of Parliament, by far the more established usage.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16270 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    But the Conservative Party vote ain’t left.

    They were opposed to asset sales, though. However, I agree to your broader point that a National government is likely. I'm just finding the whole business of lining up how the government is going to be when it very likely could be a coalition with a group of people who purportedly represent the most oppressed class of NZers of all, premature.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    they will get a trade off which can please those opposing

    I guess the Maori Party's proposed changes to Te Puni Kokiri or establishing a Tiriti Commisioner might do that, though I can't see the Nats agreeing to either. Unless it can be dressed up as a continuation of Whanau Ora which they know Turia will die in a ditch for - hence the carefully-worded suggestions during the campaign that it might be discontinued.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16270 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    a group of people who purportedly represent the most oppressed class of NZers of all

    The Maori Party represents wealthy Maori interests as well - just like the Greens represent a wider spectrum than the stereotype.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16270 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    The left needs to talk, listen, argue and develop an alternative, more collective and communal vision for the country. That’s work, and it needs working on

    +1

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16270 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    The left needs to talk, listen, argue and develop an alternative, more collective and communal vision for the country. That’s work, and it needs working on :)

    I agree with most of what you said, but I'm not entirely sold on the crude characterisation of the political spectrum as left/right anymore. It's not that simple, and political parties need to take that into account.

    Also, for me personally, while I agree that 'we still lost', I think that the media have (again) failed in their duty by absolutely calling it for Key without any hint that there might be even the possibility of an upset. Sure, it's Joyce's job to spin it like that, and it's one thing I don't begrudge him for. But they didn't have to swallow it wholesale.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2326 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    The left needs to talk, listen, argue and develop an alternative, more collective and communal vision for the country. That’s work, and it needs working on :)

    Amen. I certainly don't claim to have the answers to deepening recession from an economic perspective - indeed I think our economy will tank no matter what government we have, because it's an international trend for economies like ours. Globalization is redistributing wealth away from countries like NZ, and will continue to do so until an answer is found, or we reach the value that our labour is actually worth in a world market, which isn't very much above the Third World.

    Which is why I think economic fairness is more vital than ever - unless we also want our social makeup to look Third World. Child poverty is already extremely shameful here, but it's got a long way to fall still, if an increasing rich/poor divide is the path we continue down.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Sacha,

    The Maori Party represents wealthy Maori interests as well - just like the Greens represent a wider spectrum than the stereotype.

    Sure, but the majority of Maori are not wealthy, indeed they are the least wealthy racial class in this country, and the most affected by all of our social ills. I can't see them surviving if they continue to openly act in the interests of wealthy Maori.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • slarty, in reply to BenWilson,

    The left needs to talk, listen, argue and develop an alternative, more collective and communal vision for the country.

    +3 then.

    ... again - a party with dignity fighting for an equitable society.

    Anybody fancy having a whip-round for 122 copies of The Spirit Level? (and 10 copies of Zombie Economics...)

    Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    Eh, I think the idea that the left (really Labour) needs to indulge in broad soul searching is wrong.

    The Labour Party ran a strong election campaign, and most of the policy is very good.

    What was very bad was the the three years in between, and the list structure. The Party failed, and that includes the MPs, but it also includes the organisational wing. The focus needs to be on fixing the Party, not policy. (If the Party failed, does that reflect badly on Little? Flatt? Coatsworth?

    What structural reforms are needed? Did the policy process work as well as it could have? Did it connect properly with the rest of the party? Was the timing/methodology/whatever effective? Is the remit system appropriate these days?

    Since Jul 2008 • 1263 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    Can we please not abbreviate the Maori Party like that. I always read it as Member of Parliament, by far the more established usage.

    How about "Ma Pa" then.

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1479 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to Sacha,

    If I had a decent way of using macrons on this machine, I wouldn't :)

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 1434 posts Report Reply

  • slarty,

    I am almost tempted to tune into talkback to listen to the ranting that will be prompted by this.

    Iwi interested in up to 20% of asset shares.

    The dissonance it will inspire would be a joy to behold.

    But the more I think about it, the more it sounds like a least-worst outcome.

    I honestly think many people who voted National thought that "nice Mr Key" wouldn't really go through with the sales...

    Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report Reply

  • Allan Moyle, in reply to Joshua Arbury,

    I am struggling with this outcome too, as almost to a person those who I spoke with who voted Labour traditionally, were all going to vote Goldsmith in an attempt to rout the yellow peril. There was no shortage of discussion and commitment about voting strategically..maybe they bailed in the booth.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 85 posts Report Reply

  • John Armstrong, in reply to Sacha,

    Can we please not abbreviate the Maori Party like that.

    And 'MP' is doubly confusing given the presence of the Mana Party on the scene..

    Hamilton • Since Nov 2007 • 126 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to slarty,

    Anybody fancy having a whip-round for 122 copies of The Spirit Level? (and 10 copies of Zombie Economics...)

    Season well with a couple of copies of Machiavelli's 'The Prince', and Sun-Tzu's 'The Art of War'. Garnish with 'Eat, Pray, Love' and 'The Secret', and serve hot.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2326 posts Report Reply

  • Christopher Dempsey,

    I am a bit dubious about the advantages of improved rail to Auckland Central residents. Most of them either live within a painless walk, bike ride, bus ride or car trip from the city, or actually live in the city itself. Or they live on Waiheke, which will never ever be connected by rail to the city. It’s one of the only electorates that doesn’t really have much to gain

    Except of course we gain relief from the now hundreds and will/would be thousands of buses pouring into the city centre during the day to transport all you lovely folk from the outer reaches of Antarctica cause you love downtown. We get a huge benefit from the CRL right there.

    But they didn’t have to swallow it wholesale.

    You're asking the media to do their job?

    Parnell / Tamaki-Auckland… • Since Sep 2008 • 639 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    The left needs to talk, listen, argue and develop an alternative, more collective and communal vision for the country. That’s work, and it needs working on :)

    Red Alert I believe was intended to take such steps. In practice, it seems to have ended up preaching to the choir. Such is the nature of blogs – they seem to galvanise existing opinions rather than influence them, and it seems to be the same for PAS, Te Standard, Kiwiblog, Whaleoil et al.

    So maybe a different model of reaching out could be considered, instead of the traditional blog model. How did Obama do it, without having to rely on disillusionment with Dubya?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4058 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    How did Obama do it?

    He had a gazillion dollars to spend on advertising.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1739 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Christopher Dempsey,

    You're asking the media to do their job?

    What can I say? I'm an incurable optimist.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2326 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to slarty,

    Iwi interested in up to 20% of asset shares.

    On the one hand the shares would stay local. On the other hand it'll easily play into Winston's and the Coastal Coalition's hands.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4058 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    the left (really Labour)

    and there we go again.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16270 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to DeepRed,

    Red Alert I believe was intended to take such steps

    it's the Labour parliamentarians' blog

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16270 posts Report Reply

  • HenryB, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    What was very bad was the the three years in between, and the list structure. The Party failed, and that includes the MPs, but it also includes the organisational wing. The focus needs to be on fixing the Party, not policy. (If the Party failed, does that reflect badly on Little? Flatt? Coatsworth?

    Couldn't agree more. I shudder at the thought that Darien Fenton can make it to 18 on the Labour list and Carmel Sepuloni and Iain Lees-Galloway to 24 and 37 respectively. Both have done really well in the electorates they had to fight for. Iain increased his majority in spite of the huge effort put in by the National Party to try and capture it (It would have been all Blue from Wellington to Auckland if they had succeeded). Carmel may just possibly make it: fingers and toes crossed.

    Palmerston North • Since Sep 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

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