Hard News: Another nail in the coffin of music DRM
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move towards the light Rob
don't u mean the dark?
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I can think of a number of ways that might work. developing a delivery medium that is not easily stripable in a computer would be a start, yes you could do a real time a to d copy of it, but the bummer bout that is it takes time, its a hassle.
I think the problem that the music industry faces, is that as soon as they move their music to a new hardware, people will come up with a way to strip it out. It'll get hacked or replicated without the protection, it'll be like the multi-zone dvd players, or people will just find a way to output the music straight into their computer and record it.
The industry put a fair bit of investment (and not just financial investment) into protection on their CDs, and people got around them in a few hours. I got around the protection on my Shihad CD by the complicated procedure of putting it into my dvd drive rather than cd drive on my computer. Now we're ten years later and they're still floundering against the tide with a tennis racquet.
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I think the problem that the music industry faces, is that as soon as they move their music to a new hardware, people will come up with a way to strip it out.
it was a short sighted and massive mistake to share mediums with computer data in the first place. it all might have played out a lot differently if every computer didn't have a drive that also read CDs.
and you're right, you most likely could just play the new medium into your computer and capture it that way, but that's one generation, real time play back capture and maybe just enough of a hassle for the average joe to not be bothered. hard core piraters like finn and techno heads like myself will of course find ways around it but many people probably won't.
people re being naive if they think that they're going to get their music for free from now on in though.
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Robbery, some of your arguments seem to ignore the fact that digital media is dead easy to share. So yes, you can make extracting the digital media difficult, so that it is easier for your average joe to buy it. That doesn't stop your average geek from creating a digital version and making it available for all and sundry.
it was a short sighted and massive mistake to share mediums with computer data in the first place. it all might have played out a lot differently if every computer didn't have a drive that also read CDs.
At least until file sharing became popular, then it wouldn't have mattered how shared the mediums were. DRM has failed and will always fail. I don't dispute that an artist deserves their rights managed in some fashion. But it's not going to happen with digital media.
I think the way forward is to make paying for and accessing very high quality, DRM free, ubiquitously playable media so blindingly easy that you'd be foolish to open your bittorrent client.
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Robbery, some of your arguments seem to ignore the fact that digital media is dead easy to share.
isn't that the whole point of the concept of DRM?
making it less easy to share.
and it is possible but so far infringes on the ease of use.
in Software Logic audio managed to make their software bloody difficult to crack, so much o that it reduced the number of people using it. They opted to allow it to be more crackable so they could expand their user base, get people hooked on the platform. expect them to re install the uncrackable bits once they've got enough users.Protools also has a very good DRM system in their Ilok device.
I personally think there are many flaws in it in that it is a flimsy plastic key that protects the software manufacturers but leaves the end user very vulnerable to damaged key or theft. They don't seem to care about that though.
some people have done small plugin cracks etc but yu cant really run protools without buying it. part of it is that the interface is the dongle. it doesn't work without it. So reasonably airtight DRM is possible, but can be invasive.
Digital producers will weight the invasiveness against how much they're prepared to piss their customers off for where they sit in the market. If the music market gets to the point that no one is paying for music and there is no reliable model to emerge from the myths then they've got nothing to lose from looking for invasive Rights management systems.You could easily develop a standalone no outputs playback device that does not have digital outputs on it. media is only playable on the one device.
Yep you can have a headphones out where u could record it into a computer but how many people have gone to the bother of real time recording analogue sources. I do it for a living and its a pain in the arse. you could also develop various forms of encryption that make none of the outputs straight analogue,you could do all of this with technology available now, if you really wanted to fuck off your listening base. Apparently all other options have not been exhausted, yet.
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I think the way forward is to make paying for and accessing very high quality, DRM free, ubiquitously playable media so blindingly easy that you'd be foolish to open your bittorrent client.
Why do you specifically want it to be rights management free?
don't you just ant it to be rights managed in a transparent way that doesn't infringe on you the rightful owners use of it? or do you specifically want to be able to pirate it if you chose? -
Finn?
how you going with your answers. How can you expect to beat the oposition if you don't understand their side of the story? -
it was a short sighted and massive mistake to share mediums with computer data in the first place. it all might have played out a lot differently if every computer didn't have a drive that also read CDs.
and you're right, you most likely could just play the new medium into your computer and capture it that way, but that's one generation, real time play back capture and maybe just enough of a hassle for the average joe to not be bothered. hard core piraters like finn and techno heads like myself will of course find ways around it but many people probably won't.
Protecting the status quo by making technology that doesn't work properly? That's always been successful ...
The large majority of CD-ripping isn't done in aid of piracy, it's done by people who want to listen to music they've paid for on their iPods.
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You could easily develop a standalone no outputs playback device that does not have digital outputs on it. media is only playable on the one device.
The only way that'll be 'safe' is if that's the only way that you sell your music.
And given that people won't buy it if it has to be run through some expensive playback device and can't go through anything else (like the expensive, great-sounding stereo that everyone has already paid a bunch of money to own to play music) then I don't really see the point.
People will just go buy different music that comes on CD or digitally without having to use your device. Your competition will sell music, which will be on-distributed online, and you'll sell virtually nothing.
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Why do you specifically want it to be rights management free?
don't you just ant it to be rights managed in a transparent way that doesn't infringe on you the rightful owners use of it? or do you specifically want to be able to pirate it if you chose?What I'm saying is that you don't get to choose. In this day and age, if it's any good your publicly available media *will* be available digitally, non DRM to anyone who wants to open the relevant app. Someone will do the work to make it happen. Therefore, selling your stuff has to be as easy as acquiring pirated versions and with about the same level of restriction.
Today I expect to be able to play a song I buy on my iPod, stereo, computer, off a USB stick in my car stereo. I want to format shift it however I need to accomplish this. I want to be in control of how I use the media, and the more restrictions placed on how I use it, the more disillusioned I will become and the less likely I am to experience it.
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This from the herald this morning
"Illegally downloaded tracks now outnumber legally bought music tracks by 20 to 1, the international trade body said today".
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Protecting the status quo by making technology that doesn't work properly? That's always been successful ...
your definition of properly and the device designers definition may well be 2 different things.
properly in their case might mean you can play the track on any of YOUR play back devices. your definition of properly might mean allowing you to copy and give it to your friends. -
The large majority of CD-ripping isn't done in aid of piracy, it's done by people who want to listen to music they've paid for on their iPods.
oh really, what study did you pull that bit of information from.
see above herald quote. apparently not everyone is ripping for their own personal use.
I see no issue with the purchaser being able to play a track on any of their machines and I don't see properly implemented DRM getting in the way of that. The DRM we've seen and the one you as a media commentator are attacking is not properly implemented in my opinion,just cos someone tried to stem the flow of copying which made it difficult for you to rip a cd to your ipod shouldn't automatically lead you to the conclusion that all DRM is evil. You know why they need to do it and you should understand the wider implications of a failure to do so. there is no viable alternative model.
and please don't give me the david byrne says everyone's going to play live from now on speech. when was the last time you say him play at the kings arms? -
This from the herald this morning
"Illegally downloaded tracks now outnumber legally bought music tracks by 20 to 1, the international trade body said today".
But the overall market is down only around 10%, so it seems like many of those 20 lead to a purchase.
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What I'm saying is that you don't get to choose. In this day and age,
apparently you do get to choose as with the example I gave you with logic audio and the DRM on their software. essentially uncrackable, dongle only or it doesn't work.
the issue is at what cost.
I want to be in control of how I use the media, and the more restrictions placed on how I use it, the more disillusioned I will become and the less likely I am to experience it.
So you'd be quite happy with DRM that allowed you to do all of that but stopped you from distributing digital media to your friends?
And what you want and what you can have are different things as illustrated by the Internet Provider industry.
I want high speed internet with no data cap at affordable prices but fuck me if I can actually have that in this country at the moment.
I can have high speed all I can eat as long as I don't want to eat much (xtra go large and woosh both offered but now discontinued, and those left on the package suffer traffic shaping (p2p traffic is filtered and all other traffic is choked down once it reaches 700 meg per day at peak traffic times)
or I can have high speed pay as you go with gigage costing an arm and a leg. remembering that 90 mins of watchable video is 700meg the dream of us all watching tv through our internet connection is a long way off. so apparently the customer is not king but is instead something to be manipulated and bleed at what ever rate the service provider can get away with. I'm keen to see your examples of where the customer gets to dictate the rules freely, especially the example where the customer gets to say they want something for free and gets it. -
more from the herald article
As part of its response, the industry is calling on internet service providers to take more responsibility for illegal file sharing by either disconnecting those who repeatedly upload music or preventing illegal tracks from being downloaded.
Many ISPs have so far proved reluctant to engage on the matter, but the music industry is hoping this could change following a move by French President Nicolas Sarkozy to block Web access to those frequently downloading music or films illegally.
now wasn't I just saying that they had to be repercussions.
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apparently you do get to choose as with the example I gave you with logic audio and the DRM on their software. essentially uncrackable, dongle only or it doesn't work.
I've been pretty careful to say "digital media" in my posts, because you're absolutely right, there are some pretty robust (but not foolproof) DRM systems for software out there. But there is a difference between something that executes on a specific hardware platform and a piece of digital media that can be played on a huge number of devices with different hardware and operating systems.
So you'd be quite happy with DRM that allowed you to do all of that but stopped you from distributing digital media to your friends?
No way, I want to be able to say to my mate, hey check out this cool song, and put it on his iPod or whatever. I'm honestly not sure where this feeling of entitlement comes from, but any restriction that interferes with my common usage seems unreasonably draconean to me. I am happy to pay, happy to support and contribute to artists in response to their efforts. But I'm not happy to be restricted in the myriad of creative ways I can think of to enjoy that media. The exception is if I wanted to make money off someones IP, in which case I feel quite strongly about them being happy with the circumstances/remuneration.
And what you want and what you can have are different things...
No they aren't - I can already have what I want. For free. From the internet. You don't get to choose a technically illegal ISP that will give you all the freedom you want. I get to choose between DRM free and DRM bound media.
Sorry for the long post, to finish here is a good article from Arstechnica in to go with the herald one.
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A quote from the conclusion (source above):
It's often said that it's hard to compete with free, and that may be true for some segments of the population. (Are college kids ever really going to cough up much cash?) But for most adults who don't get off on breaking the law or on stiffing artists, it's easy enough to compete with free. Make something that's faster, more reliable, with better metadata and album art, and a huge DRM-free selection. Throw in charts, some editorial staff, and some community features, and money is there to be made.
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This from the herald this morning
"Illegally downloaded tracks now outnumber legally bought music tracks by 20 to 1, the international trade body said today".
That's a slightly misleading statement, and the heading of the article is worse.
What the IFPI has said is that the amount of music illegally downloaded, is 20 times the amount of tracks purchased digitally online. Digital sales are 15% of total sales, so they're saying, in a dramatic and not very direct way, that illegal downloads are three times the amount of legal music sales. The 20 times figure pretty misleading.
I looked at the actual report. The section that it's in provides references and studies for several facts on the issue, except that one. As far as I can tell, the 20 times figure has been plucked out of a hat.
The actual quote from the report is:
Tens of billions of illegal music files are traded annually worldwide at an estimated ratio of 20 illegal downloads for every track sold.
Estimated. Apparently they did pull it out of a hat.
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that illegal downloads are three times the amount of legal music sales.
so 75% of all music consumption is pirated?
thats not so bad is it........? -
No way, I want to be able to say to my mate, hey check out this cool song, and put it on his iPod or whatever.
nice of you to be up front about that.
so contrary to other pleas you're anti drm not cos it has interfered with your putting your legally purchased track onto your ipod but cos it stops you distributing the track to all your friends, ie exactly what its supposed to curtail.Realistically though you and I will most like find ways around drm, its johnny bogun from addington who will have problems with it.
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Estimated. Apparently they did pull it out of a hat.
as are all surveys. they poll a few people and multiply that by the number of people in the affected community.
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Read the next page about emusic....
Digital sales up 45% in 07. Pretty interesting, and not exactly the death of sales. -
Hi Rob missed ya mate I've bin on me hols in case you were wondering..take it you're not away or the weekend...
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