Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Drug Intelligence

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  • Shulgin,

    very good article

    NZ • Since May 2011 • 125 posts Report Reply

  • Thomas Lumley,

    sprayed with actual poisons like acetone.

    Acetone isn't especially toxic, and it's extremely volatile, so if the leaves aren't actually damp there's probably no more than a trace present. And it's extremely flammable, so it will go up in the smoke.

    Also, I'm pretty sure that acetone has always been one of the solvents of choice for synthetic cannabis even back in the days when it was the less-nasty JWH series of compounds being used.

    The report does say In some regions, groups are producing “synthetic cannabis” which does not even contain cannabinoids, but is made by spraying plant material with substances such as fly spray or weed killer, and that's obvously dangerous, but I don't see anywhere in the report worrying about acetone as toxic.

    Auckland • Since Feb 2013 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,


    Good documentary about DMT here in its entirety. It’s also on Netflix.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4015 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Thomas Lumley,

    Acetone isn’t especially toxic

    Wellllll ... drinking a half a glass if it will probably kill you.

    and it’s extremely volatile, so if the leaves aren’t actually damp there’s probably no more than a trace present. And it’s extremely flammable, so it will go up in the smoke.

    Also, I’m pretty sure that acetone has always been one of the solvents of choice for synthetic cannabis even back in the days when it was the less-nasty JWH series of compounds being used.

    Yeah, good point.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22537 posts Report Reply

  • Shane Le Brun,

    So what MoDA regulated products would pass the low risk test, MDMA? Cannabis? shrooms? BZP?

    Since Mar 2015 • 43 posts Report Reply

  • Shulgin,

    cool
    Shulgin has arisen from the dead and banned

    he will act responsibly from now on

    NZ • Since May 2011 • 125 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Shane Le Brun,

    So what MoDA regulated products would pass the low risk test, MDMA? Cannabis? shrooms? BZP?

    Cannabis would be the obvious one and the Act provides a decent structure for its regulated sale– but it could fall foul of the "low risk of harm" test as a smokeable product.

    There's a fair bit of evidence that could be ranged as to MDMA's harms. But it's less harmful than any of the analogues or substitutes that moved into the market when its supply was constrained by the drug control system. It's quite the philosophical problem.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22537 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Here’s a thought about drug testing. Lsd has been tested illegally as part of the 1960 cultural revolution. But what do these tests tell us anecdotally?

    Is context is import?
    Is the drug safe when it’s used in an Edwardian garden but not so much when it’s used at a music festival? Is it safer when the user used it alone or when they used the chemical in groups? Is LSD safer when the user considers it to be a merely recreation drug or if they consider it to have some kind of educational value?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4015 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to steven crawford,

    All good questions. It's hard to conceive of LSD being sold without some duty of care in the bargain.

    Of course, what can definitively be said is that LSD is much safer than the NBOMe drugs being sold as "LSD" at the moment.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22537 posts Report Reply

  • Moz,

    I'm somewhat annoyed that no-one has submitted an ethanoloid drug for consideration (are there such things? Which effects do you focus on?). It'd be worth doing and I'd happily contribute to a crowd fund for it, purely to see the "it's less harmful" argument being discussed.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1118 posts Report Reply

  • Bill Smith, in reply to Shane Le Brun,

    "So what MoDA regulated products would pass the low risk test, MDMA? Cannabis? shrooms? BZP?"

    I don't think there was ever any intention to have any drug be able to pass the low risk test.
    Alcohol In 2012, about 3.3 million net deaths.
    Tobacco 5 million net deaths per year.
    It is estimated that in 2014 there were 207,400 (range: 113,700 – 250,100) drug-related deaths with overdose accounting for up to a half of all deaths and with opioids involved in most cases.
    It is very obvious there's no achievable bar set which relates to safety and when the wider population finally wakes up to this fact, we can truly discuss the political motives that drive prohibition to the benefit of huge multinationals.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • Bill Smith, in reply to Moz,

    "I'm somewhat annoyed that no-one has submitted an ethanoloid drug for consideration (are there such things? Which effects do you focus on?). "

    Yeah Moz, The biggest hurdle here would be that Governments don't recognize Alcohol based products as being Drugs, only scientists and those left to pick up the pieces of broken lives, classify Alcohol as a Drug.

    The misuse of the word drug has done arguably more damage than the misuse of drugs. With the ban on animal testing,we only have the human trials of the drug Alcohol to fall back on and at only 3.3 million deaths per year it shouldn't have any problem passing.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • Ray Gilbert,

    Wellllll ... drinking a half a glass if it will probably kill you.

    Probably not - its a UN Hazard Class 6.1E (oral), which is the lowest oral toxicity you can have without being harmless and the same UN class as salt. Although ChemFFX rates acetone toxicity as 1 out of 4 (low) to salt at 0. There is acute toxicity in children but not death in adults - I suspect it would come up pretty violently when swallowed.
    .

    Since Nov 2006 • 102 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Bill Smith,

    The biggest hurdle here would be that Governments don’t recognize Alcohol based products as being Drugs, only scientists and those left to pick up the pieces of broken lives, classify Alcohol as a drug.

    The word alcoholism* doesn't totally help.

    The idea that alcoholism is a disease, is a useful medical tool. But it’s also useful to say that alcohol is potentially addictive and that some people become alcohol addicts. This is useful becouse it cuts thru the crap. I think alcohol drinks should carry health warnings on its packaging. Instead, alcohol is marketed as essential part of civil society. Which is all very strange from my perspective.

    *I abstain from alcohol for obvious reasons.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4015 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    A little more on MDMA's safety, from MAPS:

    MDMA is not the same as "Ecstasy" or "molly." Substances sold on the street under these names may contain MDMA, but frequently also contain unknown and/or dangerous adulterants. In laboratory studies, pure MDMA has been proven sufficiently safe for human consumption when taken a limited number of times in moderate doses.

    I guess the question is how you regulate for "a limited number of times" in the field. Does everyone get a limited number of Best Nights Ever?

    I think it can pretty persuasively be argued that regulation of dosages would significantly decrease harm though, especially in Europe, where pills can currently (and unexpectedly) be crazy-strong. It'd still be hard to stop some people necking five of them, but it would be five of a known quantity.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22537 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I guess the question is how you regulate for “a limited number of times” in the field. Does everyone get a limited number of Best Nights Ever?

    So mabe regulation isn’t the best method.

    The peyote eaters in America might have some insights. But that takes us into the realms of using drugs with some sort of religious discipline. The rules of which, I don’t think we could all agree to.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4015 posts Report Reply

  • Bill Smith, in reply to steven crawford,

    Yes Steven, there's nothing but strange when it comes to how we treat Alcohol and Tobacco in our society.But that doesn't mean I would advocate for their prohibition either, even though I haven't drank in 16 years myself.

    We see studies like the Dunedin study tell us that no harmful effects to physical health from Cannabis use, other than Gum disease have been observed in over 38 years. This result is tempered with their fear that Cannabis users are likely Poly-Drug users, which opens them to higher risks of the co-use of Alcohol and Tobacco.

    Cannabis users are too often disregarded as wack jobs that should just shut up and go away and just take the legal drugs we supply already. But I would say the average Cannabis user knows more about the drug they are using than the average Alcohol user, who in most cases just don't want know.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • Bill Smith, in reply to Russell Brown,

    It would be pretty safe to say a legal frame work would go a long way to quality control. But if you don't give the consumers what they want,there will always be someone waiting in the wings selling on a promise.

    I remember 12 years ago at the height of the party pill market, we were doing some major work on a premises manufacturing products with BZP. I was quite taken back to see this multi million dollar production, was carried out using concrete mixers. There was all manner of ingredients some of which were B and C vitamins, cayenne pepper and of course BZP, it isn't too hard to see consistency via this method would be challenging.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Bill Smith,

    But that doesn’t mean I would advocate for their prohibition either, even though I haven’t drank in 16 years myself.

    Same :-)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4015 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Ray Gilbert,

    If you wanna geek out on acetone toxicity, LD50 is 5g/kg*, so 350g for a 70kg person, which would be around a Kiwi pint. I think you’d do well to swig that much.

    You would stand a good chance of losing your eyebrows if you tried smoking an acetone soaked spliff, however.

    *Rabbit. Humans might vary.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Bill Smith, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    "If you wanna geek out on acetone toxicity, LD50 is 5g/kg*, so 350g for a 70kg person, which would be around a Kiwi pint. I think you’d do well to swig that much"

    Yes and the LD 50 of Cannabis between 20,000 - 40,000 joints in fifteen minutes.

    Waters LD 50 6 liters in one hour which sounds ridiculous but has been cited as the cause of death for a few MDMA users.

    Alcohols LD 50 is 5 to 8g/kg (3g/kg for children) that is, for a 60kg person, 300g of alcohol can kill, which is equal to 30 standard drinks about 1 litre of spirits or four bottles of wine.

    I know some will say I can drink more than that, but this is the piont where 50% Die.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 15 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    The peyote eaters in America might have some insights. But that takes us into the realms of using drugs with some sort of religious discipline.

    It was more considered a rite of passage into adulthood, the "religious" overtones came later when dealing with the screwed up perceptions of an white calvinist establishment that was probably drunk at the time.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1715 posts Report Reply

  • Shulgin,

    In reply to andin...I like what you wrote there!

    In other matters, the idea of consuming fly spray and weed killa on plant material is kind of... attractive....

    ...but then - while I pondered that....I couldn't help but wonder about all the 520 meth contaminated state houses....I could so do like urban raids and go lick walls and soft furnishings...perhaps I could start a clean up company...I have developed a clean up method for Gib Board...I could remove and crush all the board and extract the meth...now there some innovation for you....man =if it tested for micro-grams i am so extracting it...

    or my other idea...its kinda ugly...but you know... beats licking walls...so you find a clean up operation in a state house where they flush all the clean up waters down the sewer...I could put on a hi vis vest and collect that waste...with my gumboots on and a pumper truck....and carefully extract all that meth that would otherwise affect the health of waste water workers...

    this evening I am so full of innovation...while insects crawl on my touch screen...reaches for the raid.....and momentarily...

    apparently meth is attracted to paint...so I thought I could paint myself tomorrow and go stand near those boarded up state houses....and if anyone asked what i was doing...i would fly spray them with Raid....

    I am about Compassion Innovation and of course Proportion.

    (fucking roaches)

    NZ • Since May 2011 • 125 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to Shulgin,

    fucking roaches

    [Insert obvious joke about inappropriate drug use here]

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1806 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Shulgin,

    of course Proportion.

    Keeping a balance view is hard when the scales of perception are heavily weighted one way.
    And meth use doesnt aid that either way nor does licking walls ;-)

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1715 posts Report Reply

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