Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: A (non-)submission on the new Arms Amendment legislation

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  • Moz, in reply to Craig Young,

    Could refinements in 3D printer technology lead to functional firearms eventually

    The real problem with 3D printing is that it's grossly inefficient. The overwhelming majority of home 3D printing is used to make rubbish. Literal "straight from the printer to the bin" rubbish. If we legislate 3D printers I think that's a much better target. Or the bigger 3D printers that print houses... or bunkers :)

    Yes, but there are far more significant problems with readily available materials. At the trivial level, if you 3D print the fiddly parts then use a bit of pipe with fibre tape wrapped round it you get a much better gun with much less hassle… it’s just not headline-worthy because it’s not really new. In the same vein high school chemistry covers the essentials of making explosives so it’s quite straightforward (albeit tedious and dangerous) to bypass the restrictions on buying bulk ammonium nitrate (etc) by making your own.

    But that is right back in the “dedicated DIY” micro-sliver of the small population of weird people, the same ones who make their own realistic plate armour by digging up iron ore and making charcoal… you can’t stop them. As someone once observed about me “but if he wanted to do that he would have done it”. People making ridiculously competent DIY weapons are pretty much never a deliberate threat to anyone else. It’s the half-arse “just barely works” ones from what I know.

    By making firearms harder to buy, ammunition harder to hoard and organising terrorism riskier to attempt you’ve covered the other 99% of potential problems.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1177 posts Report Reply

  • Moz,

    My thought before was based on a Dilbert cartoon: if we limit firearms to ones that take imperial sized ammunition, and ammunition to metric sizes, we can solve the problem quite effectively. Or limit ammunition to less than 5mm, and firearms to greater than 5mm to get the same effect.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1177 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Loch, in reply to andin,

    Sir (I assume) I would like to, but due to the speed of this legislation happening I haven’t a chance to even collect my thoughts or gather information. I have spoken to the police twice and they are as confused as I am about the content of proposed legislation or even what action I should be taking. Their (the police’s) last advice is do nothing – we’ll be in contact.

    The only reason I even stumbled across this post is I was trying to find out what actions, if any, I should be taking with my firearms.

    I would love to spend time reading posts but I also have a job, a family, as well as community commitments.

    Horowhenua • Since Apr 2019 • 6 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Loch, in reply to simon g,

    Simon you make some very good points. I am aware of further legislation, perhaps we should have one encompassing reform instead of piecemeal hacks?

    To put it in context since the introduction of the E Cat licence in response to the Aramoana massacre in 1990 there have been about 3000 persons gone through quite stringent vetting processes and inspections to operate and legally own Military Style Semi Automatic Weapons. (MSSA).

    Although it was not perfect it worked in my opinion. However with budget constraints on non sworn police (which firearms officers usually are) the arms offices were seriously undermanned. This allowed more online transactions which I believe were exploited by the shooter. He then modified his A Cat weapon to an E Cat MSSA without the checks and balances in place.

    I understand the shooting community has raised numerous concerns about the lack of control (this is hearsay as I’ve heard it from a number of sources but haven’t researched it) for a while to the police.

    Presumably the crackpot fringe do not represent most gun owners, but they do fill a vacuum – one created by decades of silence and indifference. If you want better laws for both gun owners and the wider public, get a much better lobby group to argue for them.

    I am forced to revert to an adage that I heard that those “that shout the loudest are normally the least informed”. Name calling doesn’t achieve anything, was unfortunate that the media jumped on if for a good story.

    His point about Uzis didn’t really seem to address your average kiwi shooter doesn’t have the same resources as the state of Israel. But I get his point, that if your force someone to give something up they want / need they’ll find another way. Think home made bombs, planes, trucks, cars.

    The shooting community are by and large your average kiwi bloke (and a few lasses too) who enjoy the solitude of shooting in isolation or small groups. They generally have that national apathetic “she’ll be right” attitude. They are not your type of person who lobbies or gets on a soap box.

    I, like 99.99% of the population, are horrified with the mosque shootings, but honestly don’t think gun legislation is the answer. It will penalise the law abiding owners who respect the law. Do you think the shooter who has so little disregard for life would declare or give up his guns?

    It is how to keep the public safe from that 0.01% is the question.

    Horowhenua • Since Apr 2019 • 6 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Paul Loch,

    a job, a family, as well as community commitments.

    All that sounds like is you are desperately trying to make out you are the very epitome of normal. Why do I not feel comforted by your protestations hmmm

    if your force someone to give something up they want / need they’ll find another way. Think home made bombs, planes, trucks, cars.

    That hoary old chestnut again? You been on an NRA public relations course? Or something equally ridiculous. You need to really study up on some actual current psychology and not just mouth Jordan Peterson style bullshit talking points. Used to justify not doing a fucking thing cause the status quo is just the bees knees BAB Wrong!

    , but honestly don’t think gun legislation is the answer. It will penalise the law abiding owners who respect the law.

    Cue Violins!

    One last thing.

    an adage that I heard

    the media jumped on if for a good story

    So your potted third rate homespun wisdom and thinly disguised loathing of the media are supposed to offer more, and out trump everything and everyone else?
    I know your trying hard but you are falling well short of what is required a change is needed and sooner rather than later. So go write your submission and there will be another opportunity present it then.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1878 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    A page of text to say
    Guns don’t kill people, people kill people

    Show some originality. Seriously this NRA talking point has been debunked a thousand times. See also “mentally unwell” and “lone gunman”.

    If you want to build an argument for guns then you need to start with data. Not cherry-picked data or massaged statistics, real data.

    While you’re doing that we’ll ban your toys that kill people.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4449 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Loch,

    Umm Some interesting points I'd like to debate.

    Horowhenua • Since Apr 2019 • 6 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Paul Loch,

    Bang Bang

    The shooting community are by and large your average kiwi bloke (and a few lasses too) who enjoy the solitude of shooting in isolation or small groups.
    ...
    It is how to keep the public safe from that 0.01% is the question.

    How indeed? - I draw everyone's attention to:
    https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/10-04-2019/swastikas-and-semi-automatics-auckland-gun-club-neighbours-speak-out/

    This is (of course) the gun club that Paula Bennett officially opened mere days after passing on 13 of the 20 recommendations on gun safety and laws.
    (you can find on line evidence of how happy the Gun Lobby was with her performance at the time)
    The above article says that 6% of this club's members are policemen and for some reason the locals complaints aren't being heeded by the police - something needs to change there and soon - otherwise we might get the idea that the police are complicit in support for this bully culture.

    I still feel for the people trying to do the 10-day Vipassana meditation retreat, when they can hear constant rapid fire in the meditation hall - they have been there for 30 years and the gun club are Johnny come latelies who fudged their applications for use (as I understand it) there are fuller articles at Spinoff and elsewhere.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7880 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Paul Loch,

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1878 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Loch, in reply to andin,

    you are desperately trying to make out you are the very epitome of normal

    I’d say an average New Zealander if there is such a thing.

    That hoary old chestnut again?

    Yes, oddly enough the truth keeps on resurfacing.

    You need to really study up on some actual current psychology

    I have thank you: I’ve studied both criminal and terrorist motivations as well as the governments actions to try to understand the actions of al-Qaeda, ISIS, PLO, IRA, RAF to name a few. I could ask you the same question – Have you studied the motivation and history to get the WHY someone would go outside the accepted noms of the law of their country or society? You would perhaps then get the above point that they will use anything at their disposal to hurt their perceived enemy to effect change or bring attention to their cause.

    You been on an NRA public relations course?

    NRA is a US organization. NZ does not have a NRA – we do not have a multi billion dollar arms industry with a vested interest in sales to fund it. In NZ we have loosely affiliated clubs run by volunteers – hence it is not a strong lobby group. Please do not confuse the US with NZ.

    Horowhenua • Since Apr 2019 • 6 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Paul Loch,

    if there is such a thing.

    If your asking I'd say no. Such creatures exist only for statistical purposes. Or to quiet some fear, a way of self identification. Secure in the knowledge they are just like everyone else in habits, interests, and way of living. Create a bubble in which to live. The Chch shooter did this and fooled everyone around him.

    truth keeps on resurfacing.

    I and dare I say many others dont find anything truthful in it.

    their perceived enemy to effect change or bring attention to their cause.

    Well dont make them your 'perceived enemy' and try to come to some understanding of their grievance which is always possible on an individual basis, its when it get to large populations that the hurdles are insurmountable sometimes.

    Please do not confuse the US with NZ.

    It is the same argument they would use and it has been refuted there and the same refutations are still true in NZ.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1878 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Loch, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Guns don’t kill people, people kill people

    volia – you get it – see my post above.

    If you want to build an argument for guns then you need to start with data. Not cherry-picked data or massaged statistics, real data.

    cross out for and insert against – you want to build an argument to change the law of this country.

    As the custodians of the arms register the NZ Police do not have those stats. Our Firearms law, rightly or wrongly, licensed gun owners not firearms and the mechanism itself has become complacent and needs to change.

    While you’re doing that we’ll ban your toys that kill people.

    Very democratic and potentially criminalising 250000 NZ firearms owners by badly worded legislation and possibly costing the country millions. Lets get it right.

    The whole point of the article is to look at current law, the proposed reforms and make it clear and workable to keep guns out of the hands of the

    “mentally unwell” and “lone gunman”.

    .

    I think we can agree that we have different opinions on how to get there but agree it needs to happen.

    Horowhenua • Since Apr 2019 • 6 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    cross out for and insert against – you want to build an argument to change the law of this country.

    leave out what just happened – the terrorist attack that the ‘gunman’ committed with a digital camera attached the ‘gun’ so that it would inflict magnified terror and trauma. With the whole exercise executed in a military style, as seen on TV. Possessing those same weapons as a hobby, now, after that, is unacceptable to most New Zealanders.

    Arguing while being armed with serious military weapons (thats you) isn’t what I would call totally civilised. It’s an intimidating stance to take.

    Y’know, starting to spit the dummy about a properly elected parliament going about its democratic business, while saying you’re armed with a gun, makes you look like a bully. Graham is making the arguments in the appropriate way.

    You’re not the right person to argue about anything with. You are holding a gun.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    The whole point of the article is to look at current law, the proposed reforms and make it clear and workable to keep guns out of the hands of the

    “mentally unwell” and “lone gunman”.

    I think the point is actually much stricter than that, it’s to keep them out of the hands of everyone who does not have a legitimate need for them. Which will, incidentally, help with those two specific problem groups as well. But I think you miss the mark if you think that the general will in NZ is only about those two groups. It’s also against recreational use of such dangerous toys, in light of how few of the “mentally unwell” and “lone gunman” flags went off prior to this massacre. There is no accepted right to own until proven unworthy for them anymore. The burden of proof has shifted to “yes you can have one if you have a genuine reason to possess it”, and the genuine reasons that are acceptable have got a whole lot fewer.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10629 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to BenWilson,

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1878 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to andin,

    The Man with the Golden Gun thinks his reasons are genuine. I dont.

    There's something slightly unnerving about this sentence:

    "This gun is very special, it's priceless," Xu said from his home in Huapai where he lives with his wife, two children and various stuffed animals he has killed over the years.

    I mean killing 'stuffed animals' just seems wrong and did he kill two children?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7880 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    There’s something slightly unnerving about this sentence:

    I think there might also be something wrong with the gun. The magazine looks suspiciously like its got a roll of 35mm cinema film in it.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Paul Loch,

    you want to build an argument to change the law of this country

    at least fifty of those recently. game over.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    Is this right?

    "The Government is about to stuff this up in a major way. They've decided the gun buy-back won't include illegal guns.
    That's ridiculous.
    Why would you buy guns back off legal owners, but not off the owners of illegal weapons? It makes no sense."

    From here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12221755

    And according to the the journalist, MP's have also screwed up the Euthanasia bill with their laziness.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1878 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Just to be a bit silly with my language. The government doesn’t want to buy illegal guns because it’s illegal to by illegal guns, but since they made all the guns they are offering to buy back illegal they made a sort of special amnesty on buying those illegal guns but just for the New Zealand government. So they are offering to buy illegal guns, but not the other illegal guns that where already illegal. The other illegal guns will still be illegal.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to steven crawford,

    The other illegal guns will still be illegal.

    I thought they might offer an amnesty from prosecution at least, HDPA is scaremongering a tad. I admit. But getting info is a bit difficult. I might check out Parliament TV tho its like watching paint dry.And I dont know when this debate would be on.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1878 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to andin,

    Why would you buy guns back off legal owners, but not off the owners of illegal weapons? It makes no sense

    Well, if those are illegal e.g. by having been stolen, why would you want to provide a way to profit from that crime, or be less inclined to prosecute such offenders?

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1885 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to andin,

    I thought they might offer an amnesty from prosecution at least,

    I think there is an open amnesty on any firearms in New Zealand. Thats if you take them into the police station.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Paul Loch,

    cross out for and insert against – you want to build an argument to change the law of this country.

    You are arguing to possess lethal weapons - the onus is on you to present data. In the absence of data you should not be allowed to possess lethal weapons.

    Moreover, the data against is in all the scientific literature and no I won't be your librarian.

    Honestly for all your denial that the NRA is not in NZ, ALL your talking points are standard NRA nonsense designed to distract.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4449 posts Report Reply

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