Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: Terrorism is already illegal

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  • Marc C, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    I have been wondering, what stand has Key taken re the amputations of limbs of alleged, sentenced "thiefs" in some Arabian countries, under governments we have "agreements" with, what about "organ harvesting", forced prison labour, and dissidents "disappearing" or being killed or maimed by hit squads in countries, ruled by governments we may have "free trade deals" and so with?

    ISIS deserve to be on the terrorist list, but are they the only ones committing atrocities?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Natman,

    Satire?

    Well, given the crazy tone of your message I thought you were actually taking the piss out of the viewpoint you expressed. And I'm still not sure because:

    Drone strikes, targeted bombings and surgical strikes by our SAS are needed. IS need to be given the message that if they try any of that terror nonsense in Aotearoa, Kiwi response will be swift and decisive.

    makes me wonder what kind of military you think we have. It sure isn't capable of any of that. You're living in a dream world. A strange, detached, violent and foolish one.

    National has a mandate to do whatever protects our national security.

    Their "mandate" is irrelevant. As a government it is simply their job to protect national security, amongst a hell of lot of other things. And the question is about what does that best. It's not "what John Key thinks" automagically, just because he got elected. It's still something up for discussion and I hold strongly that getting involved in this conflict is far more likely to provoke terror attacks than anything our pitiful armed forces can do is likely to prevent them. This is clearly evidenced by the fact that the armed forces of the USA, which compared to ours are like comparing an elephant and a mouse, have done absolutely nothing to prevent the work of IS. In fact, they pretty much caused it. There were no significant terrorist forces at large in Iraq prior to their involvement.

    you just keep rubbishing one of the most popular PM’s in NZ history.

    Yes, having an opinion that is not of the majority is still allowed in this country for now.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10633 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    Islam, I wonder, and I am still asking myself many questions, and I dislike Key, but again, he may have something to "work" with, convincing the population:

    This is rather serious, and may not play out as we like it to.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    This is more of the shit going on, this cannot be a "left" against "right" issue, this is about human rights, decency, freedom and more, and we are facing a damned formidable challenge. The problem is the hypocrisy and corruptedness of many of our "western" governments:

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    I would like to add the hypocrisy of certain "Arab" nations we have "friendly" relationships with, some of whom, or their citizens, FUND this horrible stuff going on in Syria, and Iraq, and in Libya now, and more places to come.

    How would I feel in the skin of a PM of a "western" nation, that has "warm" relationships with corrupt regimes, which is exactly what makes this stuff happen, as that is what these "fighters" thrive on, the excuse of fighting "corrupt" "infidel" regimes.

    Where will this end?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    ISIS and Taleban and so forth, are a product of a totally failed US "investment" into certain groups and a totally failed middle east policy:

    It would be INSANE for stupid PM Key and this government to get involved, it is a screwed up situation, likely to lead to endless more disasters.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    More of the same, I fear some posted before is not published, because NZers are not supposed to learn the whole truth, regrettable that is.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    So I am finally allowed to register and comment again, after about 3 last comments with links to truthful info on islamist videos have been censored and wiped? Do you guys here get it? You are telling me and others, that you are part of the US censorshp agenda, so we must presume that ISIS have at least some credit. That is the logical conclusion many out here get. So now, I will look for ISIS videos and more even more often, and I have lost more trust in your "message', which seems to be highly US biased.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C, in reply to Marc C,

    Well, apoligies, if the above still show, they did not for a while, hence my comment. So let us be transparent and open, and discuss all this on value, as that is needed, we will not win by censorship or hate driven agendas of a Key government. Best wishes and good luck anyway.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Thanks for the post, Graeme. Very informative. Shame the comments thread is a bit ... strange.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • izogi,

    I've just watched the PM interviewed on TVNZ's Breakfast. Rawdon Christie might as well have had his script of questions provided by the PM's office, except that I know he doesn't need that to produce this type of interview.

    Anyway, John Key (after saying "all those academics haven't seen the information that I've seen") actually did refer to the "some people say the Terrorism Suppression Act is enough" line. He wrote it off as saying "that's not our reading of it".

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to BenWilson,

    Mind you, I do have to wonder if it isn’t just an excellent smoke screen, a way of diverting attention away from a government

    Flag? I don't watch anything in the Herald with video footage of Key (I like to hold my coffee down) but at a glance today in Claire Trevett's opinion ,I noticed the second video attached had men around Key. Is this old stock footage or is that the good ol' U.S of A in the Hive?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    That was satire, right?

    the Mongrel Mob and Black Power would be mobilised in a gorilla warfare action against them. The Urewera people could also even have a role to play.

    Ha! “Oi you arseholes, get over here and help us. Our blue uniforms aren’t working.
    Oh ok, informants only then.! pleeeze, we like you now”

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Grassed Up,

    A New Zealander who fights for ISIS commits a serious crime against New Zealand law. They can already be arrested, they can be charged, and depending on exactly what they did while a member of ISIS, can potentially be imprisoned for life.

    I'm not sure this is right (or, rather, I'm not 100% certain the law is as clear as you suggest with respect to those who "just" fight for ISIS). The offence provision (s.13(1)) reads:

    A person commits an offence who participates in a group or organisation for the purpose stated in subsection (2)...

    Subsection (2) then reads:

    The purpose referred to in subsection (1) is to enhance the ability of any entity ... to carry out, or to participate in the carrying out of, 1 or more terrorist acts.

    So, not only must you "participate" actively in ISIS (as opposed to just being a member), but you have to do so in order to "enhance the ability" of ISIS to carry out "terrorist acts". Let's then imagine some young New Zealander who goes over to Iraq/Syria, goes through an ISIS training camp, lugs an AK47 around the countryside, guards an ammunition dump, shoots at a bunch of Kurdish forces (not civilians) and then gets sick of it all and heads back to NZ.

    Did those actions "enhance the ability" of ISIS to do all the nasty things that have seen them proscribed as a terrorist group? Is it enough to generally help ISIS with all its aims and objectives (including fighting against its other armed enemies), or must you have the specific purpose of helping it to carry out its specifically terrorist objectives? And insofar as there's ambiguity about what sort of "purpose" an individual must have in order to commit the offence, why isn't that interpreted in favour of the defendant?

    Since Nov 2008 • 12 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Dismal Soyanz,

    So the new measures could be a back door way of circumventing that.Just speculating.

    Well, sounds right. I speculate with your speculation that Team Key modus operandi will kick in. A bunch of laws will be drafted and then Team Key announces they will just tweak the old law and concede a few of the harder right wing ideas to get Dunne.Flavell and Labour, and NZF to jump on board, thus pushing through with deployment, starting first with SAS and Medics because the U.S is on it's way

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to izogi,

    might as well have had his script of questions provided by the PM’s office, except that I know he doesn’t need that to produce this type of interview.

    I heard a long time back that TeamKey has the questions preapproved before he will agree to going on. That is how he appears knowledgeable and doesn't buckle under any pressure, cos there is none and it shows when he is caught off guard, he stumbles. He also tends to repeat lines like he's learnt an answer to a question so that's what he repeats (up to 22 times even) .I thought that was why he avoided Campbell live. JC is always inviting MPs in Team Key on. They mostly decline. Can't remember how I heard that tho' .

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler, in reply to izogi,

    actually did refer to the “some people say the Terrorism Suppression Act is enough” line. He wrote it off as saying “that’s not our reading of it”.

    Well, he can't have been talking about me. I never said that the Terrorism Suppression Act was enough. I took issue with his assertion that Australians who fight for ISIS commit a crime against Australian law, but New Zealanders who fight for ISIS do not commit a crime against New Zealand law.

    I've no idea what the Prime Minister is proposing. I'll be able to form a view on whether that is necessary once he announces what he plans to do, and his reasons for doing it, however if his reason for doing whatever it is Cabinet decides it wants to do is that New Zealanders who fight for terrorist organisations don't commit crimes, it will be suspect.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3202 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler, in reply to Grassed Up,

    Let’s then imagine some young New Zealander who goes over to Iraq/Syria, goes through an ISIS training camp, lugs an AK47 around the countryside, guards an ammunition dump, shoots at a bunch of Kurdish forces (not civilians) and then gets sick of it all and heads back to NZ.

    Guarding an ammunition dump enhances the ability of ISIS to carry out terrorist acts.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3202 posts Report Reply

  • Keith Locke,

    Not sure I entirely agree with your legal points, Graeme.
    For example, according to the Terrorism Suppression Act fighting in a war, by itself, is specifically excluded from being a a terrorist act. 5 (4) of the TS Act says "an act does not fall with subsection (2) [subsection (2) being a clause which defines a terrorist act] if it occurs in a situation of armed conflict and is, at the time and in the place it occurs, in accordance with rules of international law applicable to the conflict."
    Participating in a terrorist group does contravene the TS Act, but before that participation begins a New Zealander has not contravened the law - which is why John Key has been acting illegally in taking passports of people before they leave New Zealand.
    There is no other "national security" provision in the law relating to terrorism, other than by reference to the TS Act, that would enable the Prime Minister to take away the passports of people the government thinks intend to go and fight in Syria or Iraq.

    Auckland • Since Oct 2014 • 3 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to simon g,

    Thanks for the post, Graeme. Very informative. Shame the comments thread is a bit … strange.

    Hmmm, yes. I won't delete anything, but I would encourage everyone to try and keep their commentary relevant to Graeme's original post.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22754 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    Does't the use of "1 or more" suggest that specific terrorist acts must be made out? Or is that a red herring?

    Since Jul 2008 • 1452 posts Report Reply

  • Andrew Geddis,

    Guarding an ammunition dump enhances the ability of ISIS to carry out terrorist acts.

    But was that the PURPOSE that the NZer had when carrying out the action? Because section 13 isn't entirely clear:

    (1) Is it an objective test (if you participate with the purpose of doing anything that in practice results in ISIS (or similar) being better able to carry out terrorist acts, then guilty)?

    (2) Or is it subjective (you must not only do something that in practice results in ISIS (or similar) being better able to carry out terrorist acts, but you must be doing so for the reason that you want to help in that way)?

    And if there is a lack of clarity, then the benefit goes to the defendant, right? Or, at least, I'm sure that's what you'd be arguing if you were defending our putative Kiwi fighter on his return!

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2007 • 200 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    If I go to Syria to fight for the Assad regime, and kill ISIS fighters, am I a terrorist?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to simon g,

    If I go to Syria to fight for the Assad regime, and kill ISIS fighters, am I a terrorist?

    Who here saw Matthew VanDyke's "Point and Shoot" at the NZFF?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5418 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Marshall, in reply to Natman,

    I love the idea of gorilla war in the Ureweras

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2 posts Report Reply

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