Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

Read Post

Legal Beagle: Voting in the Flag Referendum

152 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 7 Newer→ Last

  • Andrew Geddis, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    what’s the law regarding advertising?

    No limit on spending on "referendum advertisements" - you just have to put your name and address on it. TV advertising also would be allowed, as no political parties or candidates are involved.

    However, parties and MPs can't use their parliamentary funding to pay for such messages. And the Government won't spend money to promote a particular outcome (as opposed to the fact the referendum is on at all) - not because it can't, but rather because there's division within National on the matter and it would be plain wrong to do so. So any pro-change campaign would have to be funded out of private pockets.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2007 • 200 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    and this....http://insights.nzherald.co.nz/article/the-flag-debate

    That's an excellent visualisation which is most revealing in exposing how much manipulation is going on behind the scenes. Nice work Caleb Tutty.

    I guess what surprises me most is that it's the Herald exposing this fraud. Ever since they accepted public money to run positive spin for the flag panel, I've looked suspiciously at every flag story they run. For me, the Herald's independence on this issue was severely compromised from that point forward.

    Any news media which accepts money to blur the line between news and advertorial, however fleeting, risks losing its main asset -- credibility.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1377 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    Is the date set for the second referendum next year?

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Gareth Ward,

    3 - 24 March.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7881 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Ta muchly. Interesting to see how much of the passion/interest continues to then...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • kw,

    A quick link to a couple of posts by Lizzy Marvelly on her Villainesse blog (I'll just link to the first here, it will get to both, Why we should not change the flag and The pros and cons of spoiling your vote. They're thoughful and essentially polite - the strongest language might be a "foisted" and "let's do it properly", which compares favourably to many of the pro-flag pieces I've seen, particularly the propensity to categorise pro-current flag types as older, male, and either conservative or irrational lefty extremists.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2014 • 30 posts Report Reply

  • Phil Lyth, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    The Electoral Commission also has a useful page on advertising rules, here.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2009 • 458 posts Report Reply

  • Jonathan King,

    Does it seem tin-foil-hat-ish to point out how cynical and manipulative it was for the pro-Silver Fern govt to schedule the referendum for just three weeks after the (All Blacks favourited to win) Rugby World Cup final?

    It was no accident, that's for sure.

    Since Sep 2010 • 185 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    we also received 4 ballots, 2 for the kids who are overseas, and no time to forward the envelopes to them .... I presume we can't vote on their behalf under their instruction.

    It seems suspicious to me that Key's prefered flag comes up first on the ballot .... (or are they randomised?) I guess the fix is in

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2605 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    One thing that I thought was a good idea was that the flag referendum law explicity says that flying a flag is not an election advertisment

    From a purely practical point of view during the second ballot requiring people to take down all the existing flags would have been a real problem

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2605 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    It seems suspicious to me that Key’s prefered flag comes up first on the ballot …. (or are they randomised?) I guess the fix is in

    It was randomised.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3202 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Jonathan King,

    As much as red peak being added makes the whole process a farce. The entire process has been manipulated one way or another. The Electoral Commission getting all serious warning about spoilt papers being shared seems a tad late to me and as the Edge points out ,do it anyway.
    Everything this Government does seems dependent on polls measuring the mood of National Supporters. Why would this be any different? What I find interesting, is the belief that the next thing they do will be genuine, which the public seem so very content to wait for. It just never happens. The arrogance displayed by Key and Carter in the House 2 weeks ago shows the disdain they have for due process or the understanding sorely missing from the day to day running of Parliament and any respect for that. With submissions left out and Christie having choice on the Panel with clear conflicts of interest, and that being ignored after consideration, is in itself a farce. This is an exercise of National's,with their usual manipulation of the truth.I have no doubt of that. John Key wants a new brand. It may as well be a sports logo.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    By "randomised" I meant "are they different on every ballot?" the only two I've seen are the same

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2605 posts Report Reply

  • SteveH, in reply to Jonathan King,

    Does it seem tin-foil-hat-ish to point out how cynical and manipulative it was for the pro-Silver Fern govt to schedule the referendum for just three weeks after the (All Blacks favourited to win) Rugby World Cup final?

    It does seem quite tin-foil-hat-ish. For one thing we've been favourite at every RWC and only won 2 (before this one), and both of those at home. Most analyses had the ABs most likely to win but still below a 50% chance. "They" would have been taking a significant risk in trying to tap into post-RWC euphoria given that it was more likely to be post-RWC depression.

    Secondly, the obvious candidate flag for such a plan would be the silver fern on a black blackground. That's the design that's actually associated with the ABs. So if your conspiracy theory is right then why wasn't that design one of the final four? Did "they" forget to manipulate the flag panel?

    Since Sep 2009 • 444 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to izogi,

    It’s probably not without tactical consideration, though. If she’d not previously told people to spoil their ballot papers, it’d be harder to later say “See! All those people agree with the exact reasoning I expressed for spoiling their ballot papers!”

    The thing I’m unclear of is will there be any records showing how many votes were intentionally spoiled or will those votes ultimately end up indistinguishable from genuinely fluffed votes on a list like this; classed as ‘Dual Votes’ or ‘No ground stated’ or something of this ilk?

    In the likelihood of a significant enough number of spoiled votes I can envisage Key manipulating the situation by blaming the Electoral Commission for not clearly outlining the process or Labour for proposing an alternate referendum which muddied the waters for genuine hardworking New Zealanders trying to have their say.

    Mawkland • Since Jan 2010 • 1302 posts Report Reply

  • Chuck Bird,

    Graeme, I have marked KOF as I believe has Winston and a number of RSA members. Annette King said recently on Paul Henry that she was going invalidate her ballot. I would think a number of Labour Party members her heard her would do the same. That adds up to a lot of dicks.

    I think you analogy is faulty, only a dick treats restaurant staff poorly. A reasonable complaint is a different matter. I cannot see why those counting the votes could care less if KOF is on the ballot. It does not make their work any harder.

    It well send a message. Even though this voting method is different there would not be many accidently informal votes. It it can get up to over 5% it would send a good message to John Key who ignores CIR.

    It is a peaceful and legitimate form of protest. Good on Winston for suggesting it.

    Since Apr 2007 • 55 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Presumably the vote counters are paid by the hour or are on a salary, so if the votes take longer to count because many are spoiled, they'll just get overtime or the process will take longer - they won't lose out.

    (Do they use a scanning machine that counts correctly filled papers automatically, or is it an entirely manual process?)

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • mpledger,

    The order on my voting form is
    Left most) blue/black silver fern
    left) red peak
    middle) apple eating elephant (aka hypnoflag)
    right) black and white fern
    right most) blue/red silver fern

    Since Oct 2012 • 97 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler, in reply to Chuck Bird,

    I cannot see why those counting the votes could care less if KOF is on the ballot.

    Thus, my words "A basic protest won’t bother them".

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3202 posts Report Reply

  • mpledger,

    But is it a good idea to rank everyone?

    Yes.

    You only need rank 4 flags - the 5th rank never comes into play.

    Since Oct 2012 • 97 posts Report Reply

  • Phil Lyth, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    By “randomised” I meant “are they different on every ballot?”

    No. (This came up on Twitter y'day) What's being used is described as "pseudo-random" in the Local Electoral Regulations for Council elections.

    The Electoral Commission drew lots - in front of a Judge - to determine a random order, and that order is being used on all voting papers.

    @philiplyth

    Wellington • Since Apr 2009 • 458 posts Report Reply

  • Chuck Bird,

    Thus, my words “A basic protest won’t bother them”.

    It is not meant to bother those counting but John Key and if enough invalidate their vote it wil embarrass him in Parliament.

    Since Apr 2007 • 55 posts Report Reply

  • Jonathan King, in reply to SteveH,

    So if your conspiracy theory is right then why wasn’t that design one of the final four? Did “they” forget to manipulate the flag panel?

    Silver ferns feature heavily, and Key's made it clear that his preferred design would feature one.

    They didn't have control over who won the world cup, but they had complete control over the timing of the referendum. And three weeks after silver fern-featured world cup is absurdly close.

    Since Sep 2010 • 185 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to mpledger,

    ditto on order.
    <edit>
    and now I've read phil's post underneath to see why
    doh!

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7881 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Todd,

    @mpledger

    "You only need rank 4 flags – the 5th rank never comes into play."

    Correct. That is because when the most successful losing (in this case) option is excluded, the votes given for that option will not transferred to the next preferences shown on them, because there is no need to do so - a winner has been found.

    I'm perfectly happy to say, though, that I'm going to go the whole hog and put a 5 beside Red Peak, as my protest at that design being included in the ballot. (I'm doing that even though I know Graeme is right - it won't be seen as a protest). That inclusion was a slap in the face to the panel (who, I must also say, did a pretty ordinary job of coming up with some decent options for us to consider - which should all have been completely different).

    Wellington • Since Jul 2013 • 125 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 7 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.