Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: Voting in the Flag Referendum

152 Responses

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  • izogi, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I’m a little torn. I strongly believe everyone should vote as a general rule. It is one of the few times we actually get to exercise our personal view in this democracy. Yet I personally hate all the designs proposed (yes even red peak).

    I’m also torn. But to me it doesn’t feel as ugly as that referendum where the question’s phrasing declared that smacking was “good parental correction” and then asked me if it should be a criminal offence.

    That postal referendum had a 56% turnout (87.4% for no criminal offence, 12% saying that “good parental correction” should be a criminal offence). Obviously it’s not the same as the flag thing in many ways, but afterwards it could still be interesting to compare the two.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    How many digits?

    21

    7964908 04728 0001 04728
    &
    7964908 04729 0001 04729

    whereas the numbers under the QR code are
    05159894780
    &
    05159949510

    dunno what the barcodes expand to...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7866 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    in limbo…
    Just got back from delivering a local newsletter round Richmond – only streets thereof at that – and saw at least 10 Referendum envelopes in overstuffed and uncleared letterboxes – some outside houses obviously untenanted.
    Multiply that out by the many parts of Chchch that that will be happening in...

    One hopes they stay there and aren’t turned to the service of others – I guess it probably doesn’t matter so much for this one, but the last one better not have as much ‘spillage’…

    PS a reminder for locals of the Avebury House Christmas event this Sunday (29th) from 2-4pm, 9 Evelyn Couzins Ave – Free sausage sizzle and fruit and the Garden City Orchestra

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7866 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Well, bugger me dead...Our Leader has sunk to an all time low.

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/74337045/Jonah-Lomu-tribute-shows-need-for-a-new-flag-PM-says

    I had this 'orrible feeling he might exploit Lomu's death..but FFS Key...

    ...what is it like at the bottom of that barrel?

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1335 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    Our Leader has sunk to an all time low

    ain't he though!

    "Here's the silver fern, front page, with one frond coming off like a tear, with Jonah Lomu and his years," Key said.
    "Amazingly powerful. That's New Zealand. Where was our flag? Nowhere."
    The silver fern was known around the world, he said.
    "That's the thing they use when we're doing well and when we're hurting. That's our flag."

    The man can't differentiate between All Black branding and nationhood - I wonder what his other examples of ferns being used when we are hurting or winning are?
    I can't think of any straight away that aren't AB-related - a kiwi used as graphic shorthand perhaps...
    the man persists in bending reality and getting away with it...
    ...can't last!

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7866 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    an all time low

    yeah nah - this is the dude who used rape as a political ploy two weeks ago

    And last year excused persistent sexual harassment as horseplay

    And excused the actions of the roastbusters

    I genuinely believe he has no idea what is moral or not, for the most part that is merely disgusting since the rest of the party and parliament prevent him doing much real harm.

    At some point you'd expect the National Party to become concerned but I guess they see him as a means to an end

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4449 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Imagine a New Zealand without Rugby. (Yeah, I know, this is pissing on the high altar of all we hold holy....but imagine.)

    No platform for Our Leader. None of this bathing in the reflected glory. None of this seeing him wrapped in the cloak of others' achievements.

    Maybe folk would see him for what he is.

    Stripped and laid bare, revealed for the nothing he is.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1335 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    I haven't seen the Paul Henry clip, but if I read that Stuff story correctly ...

    Key wasn't making an off-the-cuff remark. He wasn't quoted out of context. He had brought the image with him . To make a point.

    And nobody said "WTF, Prime Minister? Seriously?"

    Or if they did, he didn't listen.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1312 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    yeah nah – this is the dude who used rape as a political ploy two weeks ago

    At the local TPPA march, we took a NZ Flag...(never having flown a flag in our lives!) and a reversible placard.

    TPPA It's Not OK.... on one side.

    Say Sorry Key.... on the other.

    People got it...especially women, of all ages.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1335 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    No platform for Our Leader. None of this bathing in the reflected glory. None of this seeing him wrapped in the cloak of others’ achievements. Maybe folk would see him for what he is.

    Tempting as it sometimes seems, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're not stupid because they choose to vote for an option whose leader is someone I don't really like.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Howard Edwards, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    The smoking gun perhaps?

    Alternate flag design used in Shanghai

    Albany • Since Apr 2013 • 66 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to izogi,

    What you’re saying there is,
    the associative logic of advertising doesn’t work,
    because we’re all too smart for it. … Yeah, right.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1870 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to linger,

    Firstly to izogi.

    I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt that they’re not stupid…

    See, still waiting for ….
    Just never happens with Key Inc. Smoke and Mirrors

    What you’re saying there is,
    the associative logic of advertising doesn’t work,
    because we’re all too smart for it. … Yeah, right.

    +1

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    dunno what the barcodes expand to…

    Well, cough, on mine the QrCode is the same as the number under it.
    The Barcode over the address gives the same number.
    The barcode on the right hand margin gives a similar number to the number below it apart from 5 extra digits at the end of the printed number which is the same as part of the phone number I had as a child in the UK and they add up to 13.
    As I said, very fishy...

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Attachment

    Talking of fishy…
    I noticed in today’s “paper” that Mr Little has labeled a certain Prime Minister “Tasteless”. This follows the very same Prime Minister that, not so long ago, was called “Gutless” by a prominent opposition MP.
    This reminded me of the Bassa Fish, which we had foisted upon us by a range of entrepreneurial retailers as Bassa Fillets. If you have ever had the dubious pleasure of sampling a mosel or two of this Catfish (Pangasius bocourti), then I think you would agree that it is both tasteless and by dint of having been filleted, gutless.
    It also resembles a certain Prime Minister in my mind.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Howard Edwards,

    The smoking gun perhaps?

    Probably knock-off or imitation NZ apples...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7866 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to linger,

    Apologies if I came across as overly harsh in my earlier comment.

    What you’re saying there is,
    the associative logic of advertising doesn’t work,
    because we’re all too smart for it.

    Not at all. I think the there’s plenty of evidence that advertising manipulates how people think, and I’m not entirely comfortable with how it crosses with politics and money that’s spent on political advertising. I know I get manipulated by advertising every day, sometimes I even notice exactly when it's happening as it happens, and I suspect there are few if any people who could claim otherwise.

    I don’t think that alone makes people naive or stupid, and what I said was that I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt that they’re not stupid.

    Similarly I’m sure more than a few people are consciously aware that their like of the PM might relate to how well he appears to get on with the All Blacks. But what does it accomplish to declare that he’d not be popular it it weren’t for hanging out with them so much? Would that really be the case?


    Granted I only have my own subjective observations to go on, but I’ve also run into plenty of people who are perfectly aware of spin around the PM, get sick of rugby, reckon the flag referendums are something dreamed up by a money-wasting moron with a giant turd for a brain, don’t especially like him, yet still claim to vote and support National. Why? That’s ultimately their business, but my best theory, derived from other things these people have often said, is that they care about other issues and policy beyond who the Prime Minister, and/or they perceive available alternatives as worse.

    Surely the best way to replace the government is to provide a decent alternative for people to vote for – not to skite about how the single figurehead at the top is a vacuous smiling shell made of teflon. That’s been claimed for years and really hasn’t made much of a dent.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to izogi,

    the best way to replace the government is to provide a decent alternative

    Very true. But for most of us here, it’s a lot easier to slag off Key (and to note that his personal popularity derives at least in part from using every advertising trick in the book) than it is to create a perception of the opposition as competent. (Especially frustrating when National are demonstrably not functioning any better than any possible alternative.)

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1870 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I genuinely believe he has no idea what is moral or not

    Who needs a moral compass when you've got Curia?

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2210 posts Report Reply

  • tussock, in reply to izogi,

    yet still claim to vote and support National. Why?

    People are tribal, and they vote for the people who remind them of themselves and seem to be living the life they want. The majority of people want Green/Mana policies, and they vote for the National Party to implement them because they want to be successful and get everything they ever wanted and be relaxed about all that other stuff like John Key did and is.

    Similarly, they did not want the life Bill English got for himself, nor Don Brash, though the latter was much closer on account of he was secretly a bit racist too.

    In the US, a majority of Republican voters want the all Democrat's main policies implemented, and none of the Republican ones, and they vote for the Republicans to do that because that's who they aspire to be like, including being all racist dog-whistler and scared of Jesus and their own sexuality and stuff.

    Since Nov 2006 • 607 posts Report Reply

  • Astro Puss, in reply to Jonathan King,

    Indeed - AND no accident that Dear Leader is pushing it in today's media (24/11/15) on the back of the Irish Examiner's observance of the passing of Jonah Lomu. He might not be paying for advertising but by God he gets the mileage purely because of who he is.

    Influencing the vote much?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2015 • 4 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Astro Puss,

    Why, it’s a (Cyathea) dealb(e)ata…

    Influencing the vote much?

    But The Irish Examiner have used a nice realistic looking fern – I don’t see how Key can compare that to the crappy clip-art travesties he is trying to foist on us…
    There is no gravitas or power to them at all.

    Can any one else find the other examples of fern imagery used overseas to represent NZ doing well or badly that Key insists exist?

    The silver fern was known around the world, he said.
    “That’s the thing they use when we’re doing well and when we’re hurting. That’s our flag.”

    I note he only brought the one example apparently.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7866 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to izogi,

    Surely the best way to replace the government is to provide a decent alternative for people to vote for

    Sadly it seems that no matter how you vote you end up getting politicians.

    To be be less trite - there is at present in NZ far too few people in politics who are genuinely there to do the best (they think) for the country AND who are competent.

    It can't simply be that only selfish dishonest people can succeed can it? But looking at things like this flag debacle and you can't help but lose faith in our system.

    It's deeply frustrating. Part of it must be about the environment in WTGN, I certainly couldn't tolerate the crap that goes on at question time. But part of it must be the way parties select candidates and then the way the population selects parties/candidates.

    I also have a nagging suspicion that some of the problems with NZ politics are the fault of the bureaucracy that surrounds the MPs.

    I feel that there are more days now that I don't believe our democratic system actually works at all, that shouldn't happen.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4449 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    The irish Examiner? That's an eejits paper. Stick to Waterford Whispers.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Parley mint... a breath of fresh air

    I certainly couldn’t tolerate the crap that goes on at question time.

    Me too - they are appalling - if they were school kids they'd all be on detention.

    I think I heard Goff on the radio referring to it as the 'Theatre of the House' -
    If they were elected to be entertainers, no one told me - if they just wanna be in 'humorous debates' there are other outlets for that.

    Otherwise they should all shut up while someone else is speaking, and then they might get a bit more done, heck they may not even need to pass everything under urgency for a change!

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7866 posts Report Reply

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