Southerly: The Problem With Religion
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Roger Pearse -kia ora.
Atheism is a religious position only inasmuch an atheist excludes all religions(deities) or any religious perspective from it's view of the world-as-we-know-it- -
A wicked thought: surely atheism is the most definite advocate of this particular view, in our day?
And yet, it took you, a presumably well educated person, to utter this superficial and inane statement.
Oh Boy and again...
applies to *all* religious positions, including "secularism" and "atheism",
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Atheism is a religious position only inasmuch an atheist excludes all religions(deities) or any religious perspective from it's view of the world-as-we-know-it-
I'm very grateful to a dear friend of mine for giving me a great way of expressing this: Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
If it can't be studied scientifically -- as most things of importance cannot, such a life, love, money, weather, history, politics, religion, and the reason why my car won't start sometimes
Okay, so... things that aren't sciences include meteorology, anthropology and auto mechanics?
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We should bear in mind that "do not commit adultery" is not exactly convenient to the Selfish Generation (remember "if it feels good, do it"?), and they are the ones in power and so in control of the media agenda in our day.
Oh sure they are. But hey, all the best, right?
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I'm very grateful to a dear friend of mine for giving me a great way of expressing this: Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Heh. I'd be more inclined to think of it as Atheism being a pathological insistence that there be no stamps in the house, and campaigning for them to be removed from the world. Just not collecting them is Agnosticism.
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a pathological insistence that there be no stamps in the house, and campaigning for them to be removed from the world
Um, no. There is nothing inherent in atheism which requires removing belief from other people, though some atheists do behave like that. There is an insistence that neither they nor their children are forced to collect stamps.
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Yeah, what Emma said. For crying out loud.
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You know, we live in a society starved of spirituality and ignorant of religion. So what do people do? They create pagan substitutes to fill the void.
This Sunday we'll all be able to behold the extraordinary spectacle of a self-avowed secular society shuffling off en masse at dawn to chosen sacred places (some of which will have temples built thereon), where priests will lead them in religious chants and arcane ritual as modern New Zealand engages in it's own peculiar form of ancestor worship.
And that illustrates the real problem with religion - the intolerance of heretical dissent by the true believers.
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There is nothing inherent in atheism which requires removing belief from other people, though some atheists do behave like that.
Gee Hope you werent thinking of me when you wrote that.
But if you were...
I don't want to remove belief in gods.
I would prefer people just to give up on it.
It will be a long process unfortunately.
Um solar water heaters......? -
A wicked thought: surely atheism is the most definite advocate of this particular view, in our day?
One need only look as far as Hollywood, someone earlier mentioned Disney films and this theme "you just need to believe", and then we'd see some kid believe, defy convention and astound the onlookers, but the whole pretext being that anything that isn't scientifically proven is impossible, and by and large this is the reality we are presented with and readily consume. to suggest that anything other than the scientifically proven is possible in this day and age is to risk being scoffed at.
the term magical realism as used with relation to literature in Academia is another example of the bias in the way our perceptions are presented to us.
scientists are successfully trained via this method. But they are actually quite a small proportion of people in the world, and their way of thinking is actually pretty peculiar
While Science is overwhelmingly the domain and people in labcoats advancing theories mµ by mµ. From century to century there are great minds like Einstein's or Tesla's who push us forward a millimetre, whose whole approach and openness seem to have far more in common with spiritual explorers like Steiner than with the honed mind of the average scientist. I'd say like anything, it takes all sorts.
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This Sunday we'll all be able to behold the extraordinary spectacle of a self-avowed secular society shuffling off en masse at dawn to chosen sacred places (some of which will have temples built thereon), where priests will lead them in religious chants and arcane ritual as modern New Zealand engages in it's own peculiar form of ancestor worship.
Are you talking about ANZAC day now?
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Gee Hope you werent thinking of me when you wrote that.
No, of course I wasn't. I was simply trying to NOT deny that there are 'radical' atheists.
Tom: that thing people go to on ANZAC morning? IS a religious service. So how can it be a substitute for religion?
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. . . the intolerance of heretical dissent by the true believers.
There's always been an element of the death cult among the more jingoistic proponents of the ANZAC tradition. I do wonder why those who are exercising themselves over white poppies aren't protesting the sneaky commercialisation of the occasion, such as the red poppy currently adorning my bank's website.
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andin wrote:
Um solar water heaters......?
Sorry Andin, just catching up on reading this thread...
I don't want to de-rail an interesting discussion here, but to quickly reply to your question (and given that I can't email you privately!):
1. I'm no longer an energy engineer, so it's been a few years since I last looked at solar water heating.
2. But there's certainly nothing inherently wrong with solar collectors based on evacuated glass tubes. Glass has advantages compared to other materials in terms of corrosion resistance and cost (especially given the current price of copper).
3. Having said that, the performance of individual models and makes (of evacuated tube collector) will vary enormously.
4. A good way of evaluating systems is in terms of net cost per Joule (or kWh):
(a) Find out the expected solar incidence for your house & installation orientation.
(b) Work out the energy that would be collected by the various alternative systems under the constraints of house/installation orientation, and over the expected lifetime of the systems (if you're expecting to move house any time soon then you should use this instead of expected lifetime).
(c) In each case, work out the gross lifetime savings that this would provide in comparison to water heating using your current system, i.e. using the cost per Joule (or Kwh) for your current system (you'll have to do some guessing at future cost, of course).
(d) Subtract the installation cost of the systems to get the net lifetime savings.
(e) How do the net lifetime savings compare to simply leaving the installation cost in the bank over the lifetime of the system?5. Chances are, given that NZers typically buy a new house every five years or so, that no solar water heater system will pay back over that time (unless you have numerous teenage children). In which case you need only compare the net lifetime savings of the systems with one another.
6. Even if there are no compelling financial reasons for yourself as an individual to install solar water heating, you may well consider that there are moral reasons. Remember that apart from HWC wraps and CFL lightbulbs, almost no energy-efficiency system is financially worth implementing for an individual under a typical NZ scenario. The most cost-effective system for an individual is to live in an uninsulated and unheated house and to take two-minute showers, i.e. the usual NZ housing philosophy. Of course, this isn't cheaper for society as a whole, which is why governments have introduced (admittedly fairly minimal) standards for new housing.
Hope this is helpful...
P.S. If you're in CHCH the Thermocell system may well be worth looking at. I know they've had systems installed for 25 years with no problems, and by using a flat-plate heat-pipe they should be able to keep their costs down. Also NZ made, of course. Disclosure: the inventor of this system was on the examining committee for my Ph.D.
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There is nothing inherent in atheism which requires removing belief from other people, though some atheists do behave like that.
Yes, the atheists we hear from most often. It's definitely an unfair representation. Excessive piety is also an unfair representation of Christians, the vast majority of whom in this country don't knock on doors and don't even go to Church.
I used to think Mormons were a particularly annoying sect, until I discovered recently that about 50% of my co-workers are Mormons and I never even knew. I should have guessed, since they're based in Utah, but from the way they talk they're just the same as anyone else, if perhaps a little bit more polite and professional.
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Many Thanks David (is it David or Dr?) didnt want to derail a thread.
and don't even go to Church.
How do you know they are christian?
Do they pray prior to the christmas gorgefest.my co-workers are Mormons and I never even knew.
Heard of Mr Deity? The creator was raised Mormon, he's very funny talking about his childhood.
Yes, the atheists we hear from most often.
Oooo Who are they, pray tell?
but from the way they talk they're just the same as anyone else,
Damn, I was sure they grew horns.
Um thats a joke..... -
Oooo Who are they, pray tell?
Isn't there some cat called Dick Dawkins who makes a living carrying on about it? It was the only sect of non-believers at University that I can remember had their own club about it, and regularly gave Christians airtime and a pulpit in loud debates, in which the final lines of Animal Farm came to mind, something about looking from humans to pigs and back and finding it hard to tell the difference, as they struggled tooth and nail for the power over the animals.
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Although your points are fair and well-made, atheists aren't known for waking you up on a Sunday morning by knocking on your door with a copy of 'The God Delusion' under their arm which they really, really want to talk to you about...
Probably because they're too busy disrespecting the sabbath or something.
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Are you talking about ANZAC day now?
I had a little bet with myself a few days ago that Tom might turn up and make a point like that. I'm pleased to be able to say I won.
I do think he has a point, though. ANZAC day has turned into something of a sacred cow. The coverage in the week leading up to it seems to get worse every year. There is, it seems to me, a danger that the day will become excessively ritualised, and that 'lest we forget' will turn into just another emptily, thoughtlessly parroted phrase, devoid of meaning.
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'lest we forget' will turn into just another emptily parroted phrase, devoid of meaning or thought
What happens when it's over? Will it finish?
ok coat getting... -
Isn't there some cat called Dick Dawkins who makes a living carrying on about it?
Last I heard he was an evolutionary biologist and author and made his living doing that. He did write on book specifically about religion.
"Makes a living carrying on about it" is as an inaccurate statement as one could make about his profession.
And anyway I was hoping you would dish the dirt on PA's most vociferous atheists.It was the only sect of non-believers at University that I can remember had their own club about it, and regularly gave Christians airtime and a pulpit in loud debates,
Ya see there's yer problem, university debating clubs are just an excuse to get pissed and all the loudness was just built up thirst waiting to be sated. Not real life at all. Oh Wait.....
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Probably because they're too busy disrespecting the sabbath or something.
Pointedly sleeping in.
I will give that even the most vociferous Atheist, hell bent on getting you thinking really hard about something they think it's a waste of the world's time to think about, is nowhere near as annoying as proselytizing Christians, and the odds of them actually oppressing anyone on grounds of their beliefs is pretty bloody slim. You can usually get an Atheist to piss off by saying you agree with them. Christians are far too accustomed to calling this bluff.
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hell bent on getting you thinking really hard about something they think it's a waste of the world's time to think about, is nowhere near as annoying as proselytizing Christians,
I wish everyone thought like you.
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I will give that even the most vociferous Atheist, hell bent on getting you thinking really hard about something they think it's a waste of the world's time to think about, is nowhere near as annoying as proselytizing Christians
Living somewhere where others' religion and lack of is just not that interesting to anyone, the distinction seems to be fairly academic. Many of the anti religious examples given on this thread are stained perhaps with the mildest dose of regional bias, the post and thread itself seems to hemorrhage the style of proselytizing that is being railed against (good/bad-right/wrong-us/them-left/right). and ultimately, the accusations thrown either way, are as we all know, a hindrance to the human quest for harmony.
Certainly that is how practitioners of certain religions behave in this or that locale, but these forceful hard sells are not exclusive to religion or atheism or the ACT Party or vacuum cleaners. These incidences says more about the locale's degree of civilization and legislation governing it than anything, as do the reactions. If we can tolerate politicians door knocking to earn our trust and sway our devotion then we can tolerate religious reps. Personally I favor the world where no one dares sway my beliefs at my doorstep or on the street.
Horrendous atrocities committed in the PRC back in the day to stifle religion, resulted in significantly limited freedom of public expression of religion (particularly with reference to these Abrahamic religions which are undeniably the prime focus of this thread) that have been allowed to reemerge, producing an environment where belief systems remain in the only place they're of any practical benefit, ie. in peoples' own minds.
Shit methods, but good results. Perhaps something to be learned, perhaps not.
Islander found a way to deal with bible bashers which by the sound of it has proven almost entirely successful,
"Missionaries will be hosed" works fine too,
You can usually get an Atheist to piss off by saying you agree with them. Christians are far too accustomed to calling this bluff.
Generalizations like this take us little distance along the road to understanding, it's not the religion/ the political party/ the sales company that is at fault, as much as it is that this or the other person who wants to alter another's belief system/ political leanings/ patio in a forceful and unwelcome manner is a
dick.
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If any other dicks happen upon this thread and read that rant, I mean no offence. We are what we are. We can't escape our dickishness, but we can develop our ability to better appraise and respect others' tolerance levels towards us.
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