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Speaker: Towards a realistic drug policy

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  • nz native,

    This thread has wandered somewhat ..........

    Early on there was the slightly insane comment that all nz mass murderers used cannabis. How about the name Stanley Graeham for a bit of reality.

    Its batty fear mongering by those who don't have a clue which is responsible for such daft beliefs about cannabis and some other drugs .

    Other thread contributors did not think much of the guest speakers intertwining of alcohol into his legalize/regulate cannabis argument.

    This country has a booze culture which results in a hell of a lot of drinkers not recognizing that when they " have a drink ", or whatever euphemism is used that they are taking drugs ....

    That a pub is really just a drug den.

    People who should know better refer to " Alcohol AND drugs" when talking about the two, ........... artificial separation anyone ? http://www.onmedica.com/news/36bd010e-aef5-4eb4-8fc8-3736c3da0d1d/alcohol-and-cigarettes-more-dangerous-than-some-illegal-drugs

    "Alcohol is a highly intoxicating drug which is fairly easy to overdose on" ...... http://www.alcoholaction.co.nz/Background.aspx


    And then we have a govt which tells us it is " tough on drugs " ...... so it gives doug myers a knighthood ....

    Drug debate is political and extremely dumbed down ........ It was probably druggies who burgled me -John Key

    Back to the booze.



    I know a few alcoholics, some of them are totally fucked and a couple are 'dry' .

    The two dry alcoholics I know both enjoy cannabis. It is not a replacement for booze because it cant take them to oblivion.

    But these two enjoy/want a relaxing recreational drug and cannabis serves them well without the addiction, the mess or the violence.

    And as the last couple of pages of this thread seem to be about city centers and crime ............. alcohol psychosis mainly plus some predators targeting the drunks.

    Since May 2007 • 60 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    nz native-
    a)Stanley Graham wasnt noted as a boozer;
    b)alcoholic pyschosis is quite rare (it is associated with a lack of certain vit B components & generally, cirrhosis carries alcohol devotees into death long before that:)
    c)I dont know of ANY alcoholic here on the West Coast who prefers cannabis - including the dry ones. (And - because I've lived here for 40 years, I know a *lot*-)
    d) - most importantly, I know - as in being part of my life here on the Coast - of TEN people deeply deranged by using cannabis.

    I am NOT saying that all people who use cannabis are going to be adversely affected by it- just your skew on the matter isnt helpful.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    But these two enjoy/want a relaxing recreational drug and cannabis serves them well without the addiction, the mess or the violence.

    So, same, same, but not the same. Other than that, I got the impression from most of the last 11 pages that most understand the hypocrisy of alcohol laws versus other drugs, and I certainly see the hypocrisy of Myers Knighthood, but after that, you left me at the bus-stop.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen McIntyre,

    b)alcoholic pyschosis is quite rare

    "Not surprisingly, alcohol dependence was predictive of psychotic experience in a general adult population survey in Great Britain. The reported two-fold higher risk was independent of other risk factors for psychotic symptoms including drug dependence, suggesting that alcohol dependence per se doubles the risk of psychotic symptoms."

    www.medscape.com/viewarticle/528487_2

    Auckland • Since Jan 2010 • 37 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    O dear, that was a kind of biased sample, wasnt it?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Can you give one
    apropos
    A) ANZ?
    B) West Coast?

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Eade,

    ) - most importantly, I know - as in being part of my life here on the Coast - of TEN people deeply deranged by using cannabis.

    And yet medically it seems to offer so much as a natural painkiller.I just want it studied, graded and put in a puffer if it's found to be of benefit to the body or mind,especially the ageing one......because half of us are going to live to 100.

    auckland • Since Mar 2008 • 1112 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    NZ Native, I linked my studies on mental health,and various cancers, something Stephen McIntrye didn't do.

    Stephen also wrote the claim dope made you a "cautious driver" & "was not associated with lung-related cancers, even among heavy users ", Russell massaged that as they "didn't find a strong association", followed by, "there's no consensus", we are taking about the link between smoking and cancer.

    There have been overwhelming references to credible cited studies linking to mental health & cancer, my assertion was robustly questioned but not disproved.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Russell massaged that as they "didn't find a strong association", followed by, "there's no consensus", we are taking about the link between smoking and cancer.

    Grrrrr. I know that you're terribly certain about everything, but I "massaged" nothing. I pointed out that there is some conflicting evidence about the lung cancer risks of cannabis smoking.

    The study Stephen quoted was robust; so was the one you quoted. They said different things. What could that possibly say to any sensible person but that the research isn't conclusive?

    And, indeed, that is pretty much what the summary from The Lancet, posted in this discussion by Ross Bell of the New Zealand Drug Foundation, says:

    Larger cohort and better designed case–control studies are needed to clarify whether any such risks from chronic cannabis smoking exist.

    No, your "assertion" wasn't "disproved". That's sort of the point.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • nz native,

    Islander .................... I was saying Stanley Graham did not use cannabis as an example to show the batty belief 'that all nz mass murder's used cannabis is emotive false bullshit.

    Alcohol psychosis was extremely common in the house I was growing up in and seems to be relatively common amongst drunks from what I've seen ............. perhaps you and I have a different interpretation of the word psychotic .........

    As I stated I have two dry alcoholic friends who enjoy cannabis. It does not and can not take them to that unconscious piss all over yourself state that alkies seem to want ( oblivion ), but my two friends enjoy cannabis and have been dry for a while now.......... accept it.

    And Wow Islander .......... I've been smoking cannabis all of my life and dont know anyone driven insane by it ...........


    But you know 10 people who cannabis 'deranged'.

    Thats Incredible. Do they have a doctors note stating cannabis made them so ?

    Just thinking ............. when they start arresting the bakery owners who sell cream doughnuts to obese people I'll believe that cannabis prohibition is about protecting health.

    Otherwise its just more bullshit.

    Since May 2007 • 60 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    My point was about acknowledging the very real health risks, not criminality.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Any time I've smoked too much dope I feel deranged. People who don't stop could be that way a lot. But that's drug abuse, rather than use. The pot-a-holics. I know a couple of people like this. But their level of derangement was 1. Preexisting. 2. Possibly affected by the other recreational drugs they take. 3. A possible consequence of a gangster lifestyle, in which paranoia might actually be a sane choice.

    It does seem that people who stop using come out of their derangement pretty quickly. Which makes me wonder about the age-old claim that dope affects your memory. I can say for certain that it affects my memory *when I'm high*. And the 'vacant' state for a day afterward is one where memory is not so much affected as something you don't really feel like doing (along with anything that involves concentration). But after a bit of time off, there doesn't really seem to be any difference.

    That said, being on it for lengthy periods could be habit forming. If you smoke every day, I doubt that you're performing at your mental peak much of the time. Alcohol doesn't seem to be so bad in this respect if used in moderation (but if used heavily it's probably worse). Perhaps that is the issue - using pot in moderation is quite unlikely because the idea is to get really stoned, not to just get a very, very mild stoning. The spinout I get from a usual session is probably about as mentally impairing as having drunk about 8 cans of beer in an hour. Yes, it doesn't last as long as 8 cans worth of drunk would, the stoning wears off after an hour or two. At which point, the temptation is to blaze up again. Rinse and repeat all day, and you're taking way more than even a prolific alcoholic (at way less cost, incidentally - that session probably costs about $5, whereas 8 beers is probably double that if you are at home, and about 10 times as much if you are at a bar). Add in the tolerance effect if you're a constant user and you're probably having one hell of a lot of this drug.

    A sensible alcohol drinker could have a bit every day. But if that were dope, in my case it would probably be about 1 or 2 puffs, enough to get what I'd call a very mild high. To smoke like that you can't really use roll-ups unless you want to be putting them out all the time. So you'd probably need a pipe. The whole thing is over in about 10 seconds. Whereas you can linger over your beer for half an hour. I don't know anyone who smokes dope like that, except for people who smoke the original joint. As in a joint concoction of dope and tobacco, mixed to whatever degree you like. I had one puff of one of those in Amsterdam by mistake (where they are very popular) and gave it back, no sorry mate that's not my bag. The guy seemed really surprised that I was turning down free weed. But having to smoke basically an entire cigarette of cancer to get a couple of puffs of nice green just didn't appeal to me.

    I think that is the real difference with dope and alcohol. Because it is practically impossible to overdose yourself to death with it, that leads to the temptation to consider it's effects as mild. They are not, they are actually very strong. You can be stoned out of your nut all day long, and just end up feeling tired and listless for a few days, rather than the extremely punishing feelings you get from overdosing on alcohol. You can do it every day. And in that way you can spend years doing very little else, which is never without consequence. You get unfit. You eat too much. You don't do any useful work. You neglect other duties. Your thoughts aren't collected, your conversation becomes silly, your choices foolish, your friends trend towards a similar lifestyle (if they don't distance themselves from you).

    But of course it is possible to use dope sensibly too. A little infrequently at times when you don't actually need to do work, and do need to relax, can be a nice thing to have. This, ironically, seems to be how the Dutch use it. There are still hardened stoners, but most people are just casual. I wonder if a big part of this is because they can talk to each other very openly about their use of it, so they can see how people they might model themselves after use it. In NZ there is still the stigma, the fear of speaking openly about it. I am quite nervous about posting this post, for instance, where I would not be the least bit nervous about talking about some drunken bender I'd had. I know some people will judge me because of it. I don't know who all the stoners around me are, because I certainly haven't just come out and told everyone all about my habits, and I presume others have the same conundrum.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    My point was about acknowledging the very real health risks, not criminality.

    Sigh. As I said before "Life itself, is fatal" in 100% of cases of life death is the only outcome. Plus the fact that life is full of risk, soap is more dangerous than cannabis, you slip on the soap in the shower, end up with brain damage when your head hits the handbasin, should we ban soap?. That bus you just missed would have killed you if you were standing in front of it, should we ban buses?.
    You can wrap yourself up in "cotton wool" and never leave the house, don't smoke, don't eat fat, don't eat meat, in fact don't eat anything, the quicker you die, the less risk you take but life without risk is a life unlived.
    There are so many things that are "Bad for you" a couple of years back it was eggs FFS. If you want to go through your short life worrying about what might happen then fine but if you want to stop worrying and put a smile on your face I suggest a big fat joint. Then you can sit back and get paranoid about the cops busting down your door, for your own good.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • dyan campbell,

    It seems odd to me that pot is associated with tobacco, alcohol and inactivity, I come from (Vancouver) pot is everywhere and not taken terribly seriously. Last time we were back we saw some teenagers smoking a joint, and as a cop walked by they cupped their hand over it and smiled at him and he grinned and theatrically averted his eyes as he walked by them.

    Marijuana tends to be the intoxicant of choice for the athletic, in Vancouver anyway. Most people who grew up there have skied, skateboarded, snowboarded or mountainbiked stoned. Most athletes I know would not have considered getting drunk or smoking cigarettes, as it would have damaged their performance, but all of them were total potheads.

    In Whistler Being Stoned is No Big Deal

    "British Columbia's known for its pot. Whistler is, too. But we'll be more on the map now for marijuana, that's for sure."
    Depending on whom you ask, this province's marijuana crop is four to 12 times more potent than average weed. Much of it is grown in greenhouses, a practice that started in the '60s when U.S. draft-dodgers fled to Canada.
    Mayor Hugh O'Reilly hired a public relations consultant to put the best possible spin on his city's notoriety.
    "I don't think it's going to hurt the town at all," he said. "This is a resort town. We're going to get plenty of business anyway. This just helps."

    auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 595 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    In Whistler Being Stoned in No Big Deal - that sure as hell is the best explaination for the sacrine sweet movie they play for tourist.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    using pot in moderation is quite unlikely because the idea is to get really stoned, not to just get a very, very mild stoning

    I'm a little dubious, anecdata-ly, about this theory.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • dyan campbell,

    In Whistler Being Stoned in No Big Deal - that sure as hell is the best explaination for the sacrine sweet movie they play for tourist.

    Is it this one by Douglas Coupland?

    Everything's Gone Green

    auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 595 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Perhaps that is the issue - using pot in moderation is quite unlikely because the idea is to get really stoned, not to just get a very, very mild stoning.

    When I was about 23, maybe.

    Getting really stoned is a complete pain in the ass as a grown-up. You can't do anything, and it's not really even pleasant.

    Isn't the whole idea to be able to assess your intake and not overdo it, just as you don't gulp a whole lot of booze every time you get near some?

    I'll often see people do that in a social situation -- just have the one toke.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    On a North American holiday I went to Canada during Easter. Pretty much everything was closed (including the hotel bar) so I booked a tour bus and part of the journey took us up to the ski field and the movie was part of it. Fantastic weather and should have gone for a walk but this was the programme and having seen tourist left behind on other bus tours stuck to it. This was one of the scenery films on superwide w**ker vision we all kill our repeat tourist markets with, but I suspect it would be cool stoned.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Marijuana tends to be the intoxicant of choice for the athletic, in Vancouver anyway

    It's how I prefer it, whilst doing something intense. Which means it's linked to exhilaration for me, so I've never got into the trap of using it to help me sleep.

    I'm a little dubious, anecdata-ly, about this theory.

    Yeah I'm throwing it out for discussion, it's not academic or anything. Perhaps more people do actually prefer to have it in moderation. It's really hard to know, because dosages are really, really inaccurate. I can only rate it personally, usually by some kind of judgment about my level of 'impairment'. But it's a different kind of impairment to alcohol. To be as physically impaired as alcohol for me takes a hell of a lot of dope. But I may well be mentally impaired a lot earlier. For instance, at those times, it's really easy to lose things, or get lost. Or lose the thread of a conversation, and make stupid stoner comments. So I tend to shut up, go nowhere, and put my stuff away carefully. Indeed, I usually put thought into it all beforehand, so that I don't have to trust my short term memory.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    nz native - okay, your point about the linking of 'all mass murderers smoked cannabis" and Stanley Graham is taken - fair enough.

    The 10 'deranged by smoking pot' people I know *were* certified by competent medics (3 of them are unable to work, and are still in the mental health system, 4 are dead, and 3 I've lost track of. At least 4 of these unfortunates turned out to have a family history of schizophrenia.

    I also know of a very large number of people who really enjoy their dope, and dont seem in the least damaged by it.

    Thems the breaks-

    (O Steve Barnes: for a long time I had a self-illustrated motto on the inside of my loo door: "Dont take life so seriously! Or you'll never get out of it alive!" I forget where/who I stole the words from, but someone eventually nicked the thing.)

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    The 10 'deranged by smoking pot' people I know *were* certified by competent medics.

    Certified deranged *and* smoking pot, perhaps, but that's not the same thing. If nothing else, it's well known that mentally unwell people self-medicate in search for some relief from their condition.

    In short, correlation ≠ causation.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    In short, correlation ≠ causation.

    Yeah, indeed also, if there is correlation, often the cause and effect are confused.

    That said, I don't think pot helps the certified deranged any.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Savidge,

    @ Islander...

    Your quote comes from Elbert Hubbard

    Somewhere near Wellington… • Since Nov 2006 • 324 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Getting really stoned is a complete pain in the ass as a grown-up. You can't do anything, and it's not really even pleasant.

    You can't do everything, that's for sure. But I'd dispute that it's not pleasant. It can be unpleasant if you are called upon, but if you really don't actually have to do anything, if you are actually without responsibilities for the time, and the setting is right, then it can be nice. Like watching a movie - all you have to do is sit there for a couple of hours, eating and drinking. That said, it actually didn't make Avatar better - I think it affects your depth perception, and I found it rather off-putting.

    Isn't the whole idea to be able to assess your intake and not overdo it, just as you don't gulp a whole lot of booze every time you get near some?

    Took me a while to get this idea. Same goes for booze, actually. And TBH, for the effects socially, I definitely prefer booze. A small amount.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

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