Speaker: What goes on tour
256 Responses
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I’d say that in the current environment the Police would be keen to attempt a prosecution on the basis of that.
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I took Graham Henries reported comments not as support for the English behaviour, or even solidarity for accused "brothers"... but merely not being wanted to be seen as taking shots at them.....
Quite. There will have been a bunch of English journalists walking around with chips on their shoulders. If he'd said anything that could have been interpreted as taking advantage of the situation (and that might even have included "no comment") there would have been dark mutterings in the UK press.
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I took Graham Henries reported comments not as support for the English behaviour, or even solidarity for accused "brothers"... but merely not being wanted to be seen as taking shots at them..... Presumably because he wanted to beat them by playing better, rather than because they were under a cloud?
I took the quotes that Paul linked to, to be about the English team as a whole, rather than the four players:
"You don't want any sporting team to be going through those situations.
"You live in that sort of life yourselves – in the international sporting environment. I think you've got a lot of sympathy for people who go through that situation.
"Certainly you just like to be supportive."
In the context of the first para, it's clumsy and silly. He just should have shut his mouth about it. If you take out that first para though it looks like he could be talking about the individuals, which would be bad.
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If you're looking for somebody to blame, here's one man's answer: it's all of you. Well, those of you resident in NZ anyway.
Writing in the UK Telegraph, Matt Stevens (England prop) plays the victim:
There isn't too much I can say about the investigation by the police. As a squad we have taken a decision that we will not discuss the details in public and I have to abide by that.
What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you. (italics added)
There is a siege mentality out here and that's what makes it so difficult to come to New Zealand and concentrate purely on playing rugby. The events of the past week have pulled us together as a squad. We have supported each other and made a collective effort to try to concentrate on the rugby. The investigation was something that we had to put to one side during the build-up to the second Test.
Well done, everybody. Especially the police. You did it for the All Blacks.
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(and that might even have included "no comment")
I think he should've gone with "no comment". We're all speculating on a serious allegation, based on next to no information. By comparison, who cares what the idiots at the Sun or the Daily Mail think.
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But it's also not necessarily enough to press charges. Particularly in a case like this where she might have said something along the lines of "I went back to the hotel with one guy but then I was raped by these others guys here". That's her word against theirs, obviously consenting for something but not consenting to something else. If she's the only witness for the prosecution and the accused all deny it, I'd imagine the police wouldn't be able to build a case.
I suspect you're right. We have had another high-profile charge of rape against a sportsman that didn't stick, despite very troubling medical evidence and a complaint who did complain.
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Simon g,
The South Africans used the tactic of throwing attractive women at the All Blacks frequently on the 1970 tour there.
Allegedly.
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What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you. (italics added)
So the girls were in on the whole thing? Brilliant deduction!
Only a fevered genius, or possibly a complete arsehole, could've thought that one up. Which one is Matt Stevens?
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There isn't too much I can say about the investigation by the police. As a squad we have taken a decision that we will not discuss the details in public and I have to abide by that.
To me, this means that entire squad has a question mark over its character. Not because of the allegations, but because of the way they've chosen to respond to them; team first, truth second... alleged victim somewhere even futher back.
My only hesitation is in relation to their right to silence.
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I think he should've gone with "no comment". We're all speculating on a serious allegation, based on next to no information. By comparison, who cares what the idiots at the Sun or the Daily Mail think.
Mark: The Sun and The Daily Mail don't "think". They also seem to have a dysfunctional and distant relationship with reality, which might not be terribly pleasant if you're on the sharp end of one of their particularly nasty (and spectacularly hypocritical) moral crusades. Unfortunately, some mud does stick -- especially when it's being thrown by the largest circulation newspaper in the United Kingdom. (And one the so-called 'quality' broadsheets will use as a weak justification for running salacious stories of their own.)
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What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you. (italics added)
There is a siege mentality out here and that's what makes it so difficult to come to New Zealand and concentrate purely on playing rugby.
What a load of bullshit. I really, really resent it when the English crack on like this. I'll wager that they were shown great hospitality the entire time they were here (and that certainly seemed to be the case on the night in question). They can't blame their crap performances on some mythical public aggro. It's pathetic. But I suspect that's what was in Henry's mind.
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HG,
Stevens is the prop who got completely worked over by Tialata of all people; particularly in Auckland.
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The problem isn't the argument that women need to take more care in where they get drunk and who they do it with ....................
Lucy I do agree with most of what you said in this post so withdraw the comment on your responsibility. But l do think men are responsible for their own actions.
What, not prosecuted?
and
"Misdemeanor". Classy way to talk about rape.
isn't that the point, if found guilty it ceases to be a misdemeanor and becomes a...... Of course some people work on the no smoke without fire principle.
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Stevens is the prop who got completely worked over by Tialata of all people; particularly in Auckland.
Heh heh, thanks. I actually knew who he was.
What I meant was: is he a fevered genius or a complete arsehole? :)
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Ah, I get you now HG.
I’d say he’s just got a good idea of what your average Daily Telegraph reader would lap up.
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But l do think men are responsible for their own actions.
That was kind of my point; that men are responsible for their own actions, and the women-as-gatekeepers thing is a damaging myth because it tells a story where all men want sex all the time and so can't be held really responsible where sex is involved. And it's damaging because it's _completely untrue_.
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That was kind of my point; that men are responsible for their own actions, and the women-as-gatekeepers thing is a damaging myth because it tells a story where all men want sex all the time and so can't be held really responsible where sex is involved.
Agreed Lucy - it is just a lame revision of an earlier defence which went something like; "come on, he's just a bloke and you know what's on their minds aye..."
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Wow, go away from the keys for a day and come back to this!
In short: What Lucy, Deborah, Anjum, Sue, Danielle, and a number of other people already said, about consent, about women, about men, about sex, about rape.
What concerns me most about this current situation is the media approach. As per usual they seem to be prepared to operate in an information vaccum, and infer pseudo-facts, rather than admit that there is a paucity of detail available yet, so let's just wait before we judge. Commenters who have more knowledge of the media than I might like to enlighten me - do journos get specific training about how to report rape allegations and the like? Is it organised by groups who would know eg Rape Prevention Education (Rape Crisis as it used to be known)? Is that training undermined by editorial oversight?
I really feel for the woman in the midst of this. Whatever is going on for her right now it must be absolutely horrific. It's worth reflecting that the usual estimate of false allegations for any crime, including rape, is about 5% of those reported (to the police, not the NotW). Media coverage of false allegations is of course much much higher.
And given the conflation of this woman's situation (can we please stop referring to her as a girl? 18 is a young woman in my book, she can vote, she can drive, she can drink, she can die for her country, etc etc) with Angel's, it seems impossible to imagine that even the strongest, most supported woman would pursue a complaint, even if it weren't against a group of demigods, oh I mean, rugby players.
Oh and Matt Stevens was also the second place getter for Celebrity X Factor in 2006. Don't ask me why I know that.
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we worship youth on the one hand, and hate and fear the young on the other. We've created a hyper-sexualised culture and throw up our hands in horror when our children take it all at face value. The world spins forward, and I'll be damned if I don't feel ever so slightly queasy all the damn time.
Yes!
Although I know nothing, so will not pass any judgement, (but do think Lucy made very valid points in general), I have had a wee bit o' experience over the years (and years) and one thing I am well aware of in my more over zealous drinking daze, was ,black out. Didn't even know it had a name but proved time and time again that I couldn't remember. So I accepted full responsibility for my own stupid actions, and, although suspicious of some situations, I knew I had been drunk ,and couldn't remember, therefore noone was to blame but me.
This lady may not remember and may have difficulty trying to piece this together.If so ,the cops would have a shit show. I also thought it was standard police procedure to have person examined through the hospital if a complaint is made ,(for establishing penetration etc) then
a case can be established or not. -
What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you.
Wow, what a tosser making excuses for his frankly average rugby team.
Assuming that a sexual assault did take place, that quote is going to look really bad with the benefit of hindsight. "Everyone is against you [except these nice women that we met and then...]".
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If you ever needed convincing of the tragedy that is kiwiblog, the thread on this issue is conclusive proof; imagine the most sexist crap you've ever heard and you pretty much have it. Farrar himself might not be a misogynist, but his mates are.
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I know nothing about this case, except what I have read. But I've been there. When I was a young woman, in my first year in the UK, 1987, I was invited back to a boarding house for a drink, by a young man who had been frequenting the bar I worked in. I went with him, only to find myself in a dark room, surrounded by supposedly sleeping men, and with an increasing feeling of disquiet. When most of the men started getting out of their beds and approaching me, I started swearing and yelling at them to open the door (which they had locked). They did unlock the door, and I escaped. I wish I had reported them to the police. I didn't, because I felt very naive for not thinking about the consequences of my going with this young man, and I still think it was pretty stupid. However, I also know that I went with this young man, genuinely thinking that I was going to spend time with him, alone, having a quiet drink. I was not expecting what happened to happen. And I imagine the young woman around whom this story revolves, would not have expected anything bad to happen either. I don't know what happened to this young woman - but whatever it was, I have to assume that she found herself in a situation she didn't want to be in anymore. Just like I did. And I don't believe she deserves the contempt being heaped upon her. 18 is very, very young. Too young, perhaps, to know that people are not always what they seem. One would think that someone in that group would have, at the very least, felt some moral obligation, and tried to keep her safe.
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Oh, Jackie. Thank goodness you got out. I had an awful sinking feeling as I started reading your story. I'm so glad you were able to shout and scream and escape. It could so easily have been different.
Case in point, everyone! Consenting to a quiet drink does not entail consenting to sex, let alone consenting to sex with a room full of unknown men.
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Sue,
Can i reccomend nobody read kiwiblog on this, i did after what paul said, and i pretty much threw up after reading the comments.
thank god for here.
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Oh, Jackie. Thank goodness you got out. I had an awful sinking feeling as I started reading your story. I'm so glad you were able to shout and scream and escape. It could so easily have been different.
Do you know Deborah, I've told that story to a number of people over the years, and each time, I have known anew how very fortuitous it was that I got out when I did. I'm reluctant to call it luck because really, I worked reasonably hard for a very short period of time to get out of there. And I'm not one for what ifs. But it still feels lucky to me.
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