Hard News: It would be polite to ask
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I "don't think I'll ever accept" that the evidence I get to hear through the media is any substitute for what the jury and judge receive and consider during a full trial. That does not apply so much in situations where the day on court never happens but it sure does when dealing with exceptional young murderers. Unless you have another source of knowledge you'd like to share.
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Damn the person who put the "i" and the "o" keys side by side. Mr Qwerty I presume..
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He he ;)
this brings us to when are humans responsible for their acts.
We know our brains are more or less mature at 25 (if we're healthy, undamaged = lucky.)
Our law/legal system determines whether we can be found liable for an act (criminal act) -a child can be.I think Junior was 14 nei?)
Me, I find legal matters part of our justice system but - as I've posted elsewhere - justice, equity, and the law are very different matters.
That said, Junior was very much part of a small group that murdered
an innocent young man. In the old days, Junior would be long dead just now - what would you really think is better? Today's justice system?
Or utu?
NB: My personal bias is to utu - under law. -
I am interested in Maori models of justice but I don't know much about them. Can I ask what tikanga in utu stop constant rounds of retribution?
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Islander, I don't think I'll ever accept the fact a 12yr old was convicted of murder as any form of 'justice'.
Is it because he wasn't convicted of murder?
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Is it because he wasn't convicted of murder?
That's enough of you legal sorts and "pointing out what really happened". Back to the cheap seats.
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Just because its Friday...
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I think Junior was 14 nei?
It's Bailey Junior, and he was 12 when Choy was killed. Convicted aged 13. Of manslaughter, not murder, which is one of the reasons that he'll be a free man if he can actually keep his nose clean for a few months. Not that it's looking like he's really capable of such, but if he could he'd be outside Corrections' purview before his 20th birthday.
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I saw Tuariki on the news a little while ago - for breaching bail, after which he was ... impolite to the media waiting outside.
Even before he got outside there was something about the way he was standing in the dock which made me say to myself "they've lost him".
And I was sad. I hope he gets the chance to grow up a different way some time.
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I saw Tuariki
Kurariki. For crying out loud, if you people are going to discuss someone at least know vaguely what their name is!
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Apologies,my bad for going upthread, thinking, 'that looks right' and copy/pasting.
Kurariki. Noted, thanks :)
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quite right, Matthew Poole: I should've checked the name...Sacha, utu (return/satisfaction/reply etc.) would cease when it was considered a balance had been reached. Also, a tatau pounemu could end an escalating series of utu acts - that is the marriage of a high ranking woman to a highranking man on the other side. It was believed to constitute a lasting peace. (Several high ranking Kai Tahu women were married into Kati Toa at the turn of last century to make a tatau pounemu and heal the after-effects of 'Rauparaha's Raids.' I had the privilege of meeting one of these women, Taua Fan' Gillies, in the early 1980s.)
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Okay, but roughly how would that now though, in such a case as with Kurariki?
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I'll try again... but roughly how would that (utu) work now though, in such a case as with Kurariki?
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Banning for 5yrs any bar manager who gets done for 3 underages in 2yrs. They even use the "three strikes & you're out" term. Having worked in a few bars you could have that happen in one night. Not ideal but a reality. Sure if it is persistant do the bar, but this is too prescriptive.
I have to agree with Just Thinking on this - it is unrealistic to expect bar managers to police drinking age. It is just about impossible to judge ages - I have a friend whose daughter could have easily passed for 25 by the time she was 13, and the people in my family were usually asked for ID until we were well into our 30s.
I also agree that Dairy Owners and small merchants should not be singled out and prevented from making a living - if we want to go after any branch of the liquor industry responsible for the multi-billion dollar a year bill the NZ taxpayer has to pay, it should be the big companies, not the small merchants.
Perhaps the only effective piece of legislation would be to raise the drinking age back to 20, as the lowering of it has seen a horrifying increase in hospital admissions of children in a life threatening state of alcohol poisoning.
More effective than legislation would be a push to change the "normalisation" of binge drinking. Shortland Street and Go Girls have characters whose lives revolve around binge drinking, and few consequences are ever portrayed. Drinking to the point of vomiting is presented as normal, and declining alcohol is portrayed as being unfriendly or negative.
In Shortland Street, the character Alice made a comment that her grandmother told her "never trust a man who doesn't drink" which did indeed used to be a catch phrase in 19thC England, but actually referred to Hindus and Muslims, rather than any reluctance to par-taaay.
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I submitted on the Liquor Bill:
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Area size of your shop is indeed a bizarre measure by which to deny someone a licence to sell alcohol.
Alcohol doesn't even take up much room.
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Area size of your shop is indeed a bizarre measure by which to deny someone a licence to sell alcohol.
if we want to go after any branch of the liquor industry responsible for the multi-billion dollar a year bill the NZ taxpayer has to pay, it should be the big companies, not the small merchants.
Yeah Right!
The big players in the liquor industry (and the supermarket chains) are powerful lobbyists and I could almost guarantee that it was a submission from that quarter that suggested the store size restriction.
I suppose it is just another of those instances where the obvious is ignored because, well, it's too obvious to be true, life is far more complicated than that. A mere peasant, such as myself, could not possibly understand the real and quite sensible, reasons for such a policy. -
R v Rapira [2003] 3 NZLR 794 (CA)
The accused, led by Phillip Kaukasi, implemented a plan to rob a Pizza Hut delivery driver of food and money. On the day of the robbery the accused arranged which positions they were to take and hid a baseball bat near the address they had selected. Rawiri rang and placed the pizza order from a public phone booth. Peihopa collected the baseball bat on the way to the address. When the order arrived, Rawiri and Kurariki, who was under 14 years of age at the time, acted as customers, while the other appellants hid. Joe Kaukasi was the lookout. Peihopa struck the driver on the side of the head with the baseball bat. The appellants left the scene with the food and drink that Phillip Kaukasi and Rapira took from the delivery car. Some time after the robbery and attack, Rawiri and Lisa Waikato observed the driver staggering past. Along with Peihopa, they cut his belt bag and took money from him. The driver was unable to get assistance and died as a result of the blow.
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I suppose one solution could be to raise the cost of gaining a liquor licence to be based on the amount of liquor sold from the premises and use that income to fund better policing of current laws.
I think you can guess by my earlier comment how likely I consider that policy is to be adopted. -
Maybe this is why it's understandable to call Michael Laws a Chunt.
cough *word of the year* coughFine with me, but I've just noticed that Leg Break used it earlier than I did, on a comment on one of the sites Damian was referring to in the original post. I thought of it completely independently, but LB got in first, on 13 April.
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Steve Parks - the short answer as to how utu would help with the Kurariki case is, it wouldnt. Most of the old system is gone (but things that occaisioned redress are not forgotten.) My tongue was in my cheek when I said I believed in utu - under the law, but I would have sympathy for much more family input & clout into the sentencing of murderers or people who commit extreme assaults. And I would support moves to allow family members to totally block parole of people convicted of these crimes.
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O, as an offering of light entertainment value, my whanau includes a person who was convicted of murder with no body being recovered. Criminal lawyers will know of the case - anyone else, type Mouat into Google.
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My tongue was in my cheek when I said I believed in utu - under the law
Oops, I completely missed that. That does it, I'm getting a beer.
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Criminal lawyers will know of the case - anyone else, type Mouat into Google.
Spooky, I got This
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