OnPoint: Election 2011: GO!
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Watching the chanting crowds in Cairo and Alexandria unite to take back their country puts things into perspective - see the BBC or Al Jazeera liveblogs.
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just try to remember to be careful about both what we write, and how we read and react to what others have written? We don't want to end up with people simply avoiding discussions.
Therein lies the tension. You can be so careful that, as one of our regulars related to me, you can spend 5 hours writing one sentence. It's borderline to me whether that's better than just saying what you wanted to say, how you wanted to say it, and putting up with the outrage, corrections, etc. Somewhere in between is a happy medium?
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Steve Parks, in reply to
Ah, quoting the soundtrack of a favourite movie? ;-)
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Steve Parks, in reply to
Weird, because I think this is like the least-harsh place I've ever posted,
Yeah, by the standards of (more-or-less) open internet discussion forums, this place is hardly harsh.
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For all the puffery that's been going on here and in private, we hardly ever stoop to the depths of certain other blog-pits we know all too well. I've had a few near-misses myself, but that's mainly happened when stuff gets lost in translation - which is funny in hindsight given that English is the 1st language for most of us.
Maybe Gordon McLaughlan was right about us being the 'passionless people'.
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Sorry Ian, it wasn't my place to drag this up.
Whether this place is harsh or not, feeling shitty about myself is not something I need in my life right now.
My breaks don't usually last long because Jolisa or Emma go and post something which I can't resist. See how it goes.
Damn heat. Let me sleep already!!
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
just try to remember to be careful about both what we write, and how we read and react to what others have written? We don't want to end up with people simply avoiding discussions.
That's a little tricky, innit? Because if you're simply pursuing a line of rational argument whose conclusions may be challenging to the person you're speaking to, and then you just stop for fear the flouncing might commence... Wouldn't that be something of a disservice to the idea that we can in fact have robust discussions here, instead of just telling each other how clever we are all the time?
(For the record, Ian has left twice. The first time was in the context of a discussion on the 9/11 truth movement, which leads me to wonder: how far does our sensitivity need to extend?)
Although in saying that
we're less argumentative in real life
I'm pretty sure I'm more argumentative in real life. And to an extent that's simply cultural. Where I'm from agreeing to disagree with somebody is the clearest way to indicate you utterly despise them. I am trying to adjust my settings here but I might need a manual at some point.
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recordari, in reply to
Because if you're simply pursuing a line of rational argument whose conclusions may be challenging to the person you're speaking to, and then you just stop for fear the flouncing might commence
This is almost risible. Your goal is to induce flouncing. You're rarely satisfied until your opponent is flapping near lifeless on the pavement.
The times I've given up arguing with you, I've had other stuff going on in my life meaning the first signs of attack make my defensive, then angry, then inarticulate, and voila, flouncy. From my point of view in these circumstances it's like schoolboy bullying.
This last argument started when I showed signs of weakness over my expectations of the National government. Several of you pounced on it, and I admit my counter arguments weren't very good. See above. But given the tenor round here, it is not an argument you could ever concede on, even though I could, and can, think of several reasons why it is valid, but possibly in a too Hair Splittey way for you to accept. I'm certainly not going back there now.
All you, and Rich, and then a few others for good measure, wanted to do was make me feel like an idiot for not reading the National party manifesto and then defending it to the hilt. Who the fuck are you to tell me what to think and feel?
I'm actually really pissed off. I had decided that today I would front up and meet some people here, and move forward with my involvement, but after this there is no way I could do this without feeling a whole lot of things that just aren't healthy or helpful.
how far does our sensitivity need to extend?
One might wish to consider whether one is an island.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
You know what? Let's agree to disagree.
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recordari, in reply to
Where I'm from agreeing to disagree with somebody is the clearest way to indicate you utterly despise them.
Have fun on your island.
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Oh no, argument death spiral!
I just want to say that there are lots of ways to get out of an argument – even with an Italian! – without it getting to this point on either side. (I’m still biding my time on revisiting an evolutionary psychology discussion, about which I think Giovanni is at least partially full of shit, until I finish reading Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender. Just you wait, Tiso.) Make a joke. Make several. Say ‘I need to think about this some more.’ You have options.
Plus, if other stuff is going on in your life that makes this difficult, I think you would get a lot of support, but no one here is a mind reader: you might have to mention it before the spiral. Otherwise it’s just a WTF moment for most people, you know?
(Emma and Sacha are right: I am MUCH less argumentative in person, mainly because I’m terrible at thinking on my feet. Except to make dumb jokes.)
(Also: FUCK I hate Magnolia. I fucking HATE that movie SO MUCH. So much. Mutter, grumble.)
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
I’m still biding my time on revisiting an evolutionary psychology discussion, about which I think Giovanni is at least partially full of shit
To the extent that I may be, I'm sure there's a perfectly cogent evolutionary explanation for it.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
Also: FUCK I hate Magnolia. I fucking HATE that movie SO MUCH. So much. Mutter, grumble
LOL. Sorry (not really) for the baiting, but I seemed to remember that from a previous thread. How about when they all sing together? Surely you love that part?
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Sacha, in reply to
I'm still learning as we go, so please treat this as me thinking aloud rather than telling everyone how to suck eggs.
simply pursuing a line of rational argument whose conclusions may be challenging to the person you're speaking to
As others have said, the tricky bit lies where the ideas meet the person. That's often not a 'rational' combination because humans are a whole mixture of things, and there are many different people involved in these conversations; mostly silent.
Russell has noted in the past that sometimes this can be a daunting place for new people to enter. Even for those of us who have been here a while, some sorts of ideas are bound to provoke a strong response when people bring to the conversation strong particular experiences or relationships to the topic. As a minor example, you can see that any time Italy or the United States comes up. :)
I appreciate the passionately conveyed viewpoints and knowledge shared here every day by wise and wonderful people. But even a largely intellectual community has to also be about caring for each other if we want it to continue.
I'm not suggesting we suspend public conversation whenever it pushes buttons for someone (that way be dragons) - and this really occurs for only a fraction of our discussions - but at least we can take a hint when something's going on for another person and be a bit more careful to separate the robust conversation from the often less than robust human beings involved.
We all seem to adjust our tone very well when it's about obviously sensitive things like death or illness. There are others too.
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Sacha, in reply to
I had decided that today I would front up and meet some people here, and move forward with my involvement, but after this there is no way I could do this without feeling a whole lot of things that just aren't healthy or helpful.
I believe that none of the people you are arguing most strongly with will be there, if that helps.
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Sacha, in reply to
Plus, if other stuff is going on in your life that makes this difficult, I think you would get a lot of support, but no one here is a mind reader: you might have to mention it before the spiral.
True - hard to do, but rather than argue the seemingly rational surface argument and get tangled in painful knots it's best to just say you're feeling uncomfortable even if you can't outline all of the reasons. You'll get a more supportive response than at most other places.
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Sacha, in reply to
FUCK I hate Magnolia
Not even Tom Cruise's role? Thought it was a chillingly accurate doco when I saw his later couch-jumping.
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Danielle, in reply to
There are others too.
Sure, but 'why I voted National' usually isn't one of them. Hence 'let us know if something is going on with you' might also be a useful bit of advice.
I believe that none of the people you are arguing most strongly with will be there, if that helps.
That's certainly true now, because it's been postponed. :)
How about when they all sing together? Surely you love that part?
You, Martin, are a little stirrer. I salute you! :) (Oh MAN, the singing. And the fucking FROGS. And that bed of stupid overdramatic soundtrack music FOR THE ENTIRE MOVIE. Hate hate hate!)
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I can't believe it, people have differing opinions? Well I never.
I handle it the only logical way one can. If someone disagrees with me it is because they are wrong, if the majority disagrees with me it is because most people are stupid. I have to admit I was wrong once, I said I had made a mistake and I hadn't.
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Sacha, in reply to
it's been postponed
good to know
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recordari, in reply to
Make a joke. Make several. Say ‘I need to think about this some more.’ You have options.
Actually, I feel I tried all these things, but the deconstruction continued. What I didn’t do is quit while I was behind. Hard to see a road back from Gio’s last post to me. Being utterly despised is not something I’m used to.
As to sharing the real world trials and tribulations, that was going to come today, as I don’t tend to do personal unless it’s face to face. My other engagement has been cancelled, but still don’t think I’m up to it. Thanks for trying though Sacha and Danielle.
ETA:
That's certainly true now, because it's been postponed. :)
Ah, both postponed due to weather. Well, where there's life there's hope.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
Hard to see a road back from Gio’s last post to me.
If there was a road back from yours, it wasn't clearly signposted.
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I'm actually really pissed off. I had decided that today I would front up and meet some people here, and move forward with my involvement, but after this there is no way I could do this without feeling a whole lot of things that just aren't healthy or helpful.
Nah dude, do it. Serious. You'll feel better. Speaking from experience here. Go to the picnic, or meet up in some other way. No one's going to fisk you at a party, you'll end up talking about your lives rather than politics.
it's been postponed
good to know
Definitely. I might still be able to come.
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I think we need to have a dismissive gesticulation Java script app. Italians are so good with their hands...
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Ben is right Sir. We can be surprisingly non violent sometimes. :)
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