Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Time to move on

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  • Ross Mason,

    Heh. Amazing number of four year old links that no longer point to page 405 !!!!

    But going by that first post we do have a history of blunting these so called reactionaries.

    Do I note that the 'white' ones seem to have been the most likely to turn out the most potentially violent.

    Of course the greatest was the flour bombing of Eden Park. And the cops didn't manage to stop that one even though they had their informants.

    Carry on....do we / should we keep calm after this??

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1458 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Stewart, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    "right-wing white guys like playing with guns, IMHO."

    Apparently Alan Gibbs has a full-scale western town on his Kaipara property so he can play shoot'em ups with his mates. I guess paintball just doesn't do it for him.

    Pt Chev • Since Feb 2012 • 49 posts Report Reply

  • insider, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    Also, this could have been dealt with very differently: a quiet word from the community cops to someone like Tamati Kruger - just let them know that TPTB know what they're up to and it would be a good idea to tone it down.

    What makes these idiots deserving of such special treatment? They were gathering recruits around the country, and gathering weapons and ammunition and disseminating them. Kruger said he knew all about it anyway, so if he was such a leader he should have done the right thing off his own bat.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2011 • 28 posts Report Reply

  • JackElder,

    I've already nailed my colours to the mast as regards my support for the accused.

    So I'll just quote a list of questions that Annette Sykes is suggesting that the media ask:

    Official Information Act requests should be posed by media:

    a) How much was paid to Crown law to give advice on search warrants asked for monthly for period 2006 to 2007 in this case?

    b) How much was paid to SIS, STG and other surveillance units administrators during the period of 2006 to 2007 and during the prosecution of the accused arrested n the Urewera trial since 15 October 2007? ( Underst...and surveillance continued for some time of some accused)

    c) How much was paid to Crown Law to prosecute the case in its many facets; bail applications in Rotorua, Palmerston North, Wellington, Tauranga, Auckland and elsewhere?

    d) What was the cost of the police operations during the course of the surveillance , termination programme and during the course of the trial?

    e) Is this cost ( which excluded costs of legal aid and costs of court staff and judiciary) more than some of the Treaty Settlements negotiated in the period by small iwi and hapu who have had their lands confiscated? ( Comparitive analysis)

    Source: October 15th Solidarity Facebook page

    Wellington • Since Mar 2008 • 707 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Jack, there's nothing stopping you making such OIA requests yourself...

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2906 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome,

    Given that Russell and I have had (not heated) words concerning our differing diagnoses about the merits of the police case, I just want to say "ka pai."

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 396 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    Speaking of moving on, folk have probably not missed Nick Smith's resignation from his portfolios, but not from parliament. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6608670/Nick-Smith-resigns-ministerial-portfolios

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1701 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Jack, there's nothing stopping you making such OIA requests yourself...

    And he can do it easily through http://fyi.org.nz/

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1591 posts Report Reply

  • Andre,

    Nick will be back no doubt.
    I was excluded from the jury for the trial along with two other jurors after being empanelled. I gave them all a rant prior to departing and am relieved they didn't find them guilty on the main charge. They were overwhelmingly middle class white women that I left on the panel, some of whom had already told us that Tame Iti scared them etc. One of the jurors asked to be excluded because she was convinced he was guilty by how he looked. She was refused her request to leave and heard the case. Another guy asked to be excluded because he thought the whole exercise was a waste of taxpayer money and resources and he was excluded. How does that work? I'm glad they did the right thing...

    New Zealand • Since May 2009 • 266 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    Thanks for that, Russell. One of the most informed and reasonable takes on the whole debacle, I have read. And in accordance with my own views that everyone, on both sides, got a bit carried away. As people so often do, in my opinion.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3112 posts Report Reply

  • merc, in reply to nzlemming,

    Oh no no Nick, resign from parliament too please or face charges for corruption I say. This is on a scale of that proportion Mr Key, or does having to go to the electorate scare you?

    Since Dec 2006 • 2468 posts Report Reply

  • JackElder,

    Andre - that's fascinating. I would have thought that a preconception of guilt based on a defendant's appearance would be precisely the sort of thing to cause a juror to be removed? I'm astonished that it wasn't in this case.

    Wellington • Since Mar 2008 • 707 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB,

    Some of the people around here are exceedingly clever....

    "I’m guessing four people will be convicted of firearms offences and that’s it." - International Observer on that other thread, 16/8/2007

    Bravo!

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 782 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason, in reply to JackElder,

    Nothing new in that. My jury experience was the same. Once the mornings teas and "throw-the-jury-out-while-we-argue moments started, there were two who had already made up their mind. Defendant wore a league jersey for gods sake! GUILTY!

    BTW Andre: How did you get excluded after empowerment? Know someone who was involved??

    Nick the rubber ball!

    Edit: Just watched Smith at Wgtn Airport. Brutal. (ON TVNZ 7 BTW!!)

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1458 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to JackElder,

    I would have thought that a preconception of guilt based on a defendant’s appearance would be precisely the sort of thing to cause a juror to be removed?

    Yes indeed.Still, a jury of your peers is a mixture of minds so maybe that is acceptable. Doesn't your Lawyers have the right to decline members of the jury at time of selection?

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 5690 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    Doesn’t your Lawyers have the right to decline members of the jury at time of selection?

    They have a limited number of challenges (if that hasnt changed from the long-ago
    cdenturies when I did Legal System & Criminal law

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Ana Simkiss, in reply to Islander,

    Some criminal law expert will no doubt be along shortly to correct me but my understanding is that Islander is right. Each party has a certain number of challenges for no cause (i.e. you need offer no reason). As a general rule jurors get asked no questions by Judge or lawyers although they are told (usually after empanelling) that they should not participate if they know someone involved etc. So you would hardly ever have a basis to challenge for cause.

    Freemans Bay • Since Nov 2006 • 113 posts Report Reply

  • Scott Chris,

    These guys weren’t heroes and they weren’t terrorists. They were dickheads.

    Thankfully we may never really know if the 'dickheads' would have graduated to become fully fledged 'freedom fighters' had the cops not intervened.

    That’s the thing about preemptive action of any sort. It rarely gets the credit it deserves.

    Auckland • Since Feb 2012 • 167 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    The cops were considering the space time continuum bless 'em.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2468 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Scott Chris,

    That’s the thing about preemptive action of any sort. It rarely gets the credit it deserves.

    I have sent the Police round to your house, you know, just in case eh?
    Of course, you have nothing to worry about if you have done nothing wrong, or nothing that might be considered wrong at a future date.

    People with two first names never let me down.

    The wireless north ;-) • Since Dec 2006 • 4437 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Andre,

    They were overwhelmingly middle class white women that I left on the panel, some of whom had already told us that Tame Iti scared them etc. One of the jurors asked to be excluded because she was convinced he was guilty by how he looked. She was refused her request to leave and heard the case. Another guy asked to be excluded because he thought the whole exercise was a waste of taxpayer money and resources and he was excluded. How does that work? I’m glad they did the right thing…

    I have to admit some admiration that the woman was able to recognise her own prejudice and decide it precluded her from being able to do her job as a juror properly. Shame the people she asked didn't see it that way.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2087 posts Report Reply

  • Euan Mason, in reply to 3410,

    "Presumably the pun is meant to fit the crime"

    [retires] :)

    Canterbury • Since Jul 2008 • 140 posts Report Reply

  • andrew gunn, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    Steve I think the difference between Scott and the defendants is that Scott hasn't been spotted running round with guns and molotov cocktails. If he were, then by all means you should send the police round to his house.

    Russell I concur that this is the most thoughtful and informative commentary I have read on the whole saga. The only other two cents worth I would add is that unfortunately sometimes it is a short distance from dickheads to dangerous.

    Christchurch • Since Apr 2009 • 39 posts Report Reply

  • Terence W,

    Russell I concur that this is the most thoughtful and informative commentary I have read on the whole saga.

    My thoughts as well - thank you Russell.

    YesWeCanberra • Since Mar 2008 • 41 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    I have to admit some admiration that the woman was able to recognise her own prejudice

    I think the idea that middle class white women *in particular* are subject to unfair bias is itself a bit prejudiced.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2906 posts Report Reply

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