Envirologue by Dave Hansford

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Envirologue: Choose Wisely, Grasshopper: the Dilemma of James Shaw

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  • Marc C, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    As far as I know the German air force was not involved in the bombings of Serbia, perhaps surveillance and support though.

    Where is your evidence the Luftwaffe participated in bombings as part of Nato or so, of Serbia?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to izogi,

    It’s there method of gaining votes that lost mine.

    Hi Steven. What method is that?

    Not electing Sue Bradford as Co-Leader, right after she introduced that bill to prevent an awfull lot of violence againts children, would be the most obvios. Why did the Green Party members make that decision?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Lilith __,

    reach the 5% threshold or win an electorate seat, votes for Mana did not elect any MP. This is a feature of our MMP system, unlike STV, in which votes are transferred down the list of preferred candidates.

    I too, would like to see changes to the electoral systom, that would lead to less poll influenced voting habits.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to steven crawford,

    Good speech but I'm not the demographic he has to get thru too.
    I hope he lives up to his words.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to andin,

    I like that he is a career politician, rather than a hobbyist - like the leader of the National party.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    And Rodders gets out his little hatchet
    Twatcock!

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Actual Hide quotes:

    1) it shows they have another leader too shallow and too lazy to think and debate.

    2) They live far away from the productive world sipping their lattes up the Aro Valley following the latest green fad on their smartphones.

    Rodney's irony detector, broken beyond repair.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1324 posts Report Reply

  • william blake, in reply to andin,

    ...and Rodney Hide withdraws his support for the co-leader of the Green Party. Well that's ruined everything...

    Since Mar 2010 • 378 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to william blake,

    smallest wiolin

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19688 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to william blake,

    …and Rodney Hide withdraws his support for the co-leader of the Green Party. Well that’s ruined everything…

    That column is a dog's dinner.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2896 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Without his long-vanished yellow jacket I don't believe that anyone much outside of his tiny fanbase knows or cares who Hide is. When he appeared dripping wet on Wellington bus billboards plugging his swimming endeavours for a get fit campaign, a quick vox pop revealed that some thought that the Rodney of "If Rodney can do it" was a randomly chosen "special person". And that was when he was still an MP.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    some thought Rodney [...] was a randomly chosen “special person”.

    Some confusion is surely understandable when the statement “I’ve been thinking!” is noteworthy enough to serve as a title…

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1889 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Without his long-vanished yellow jacket I don’t believe that anyone much outside of his tiny fanbase knows or cares who Hide is. When he appeared dripping wet on Wellington bus billboards plugging his swimming endeavours for a get fit campaign, a quick vox pop revealed that some thought that the Rodney of “If Rodney can do it” was a randomly chosen “special person”. And that was when he was still an MP.

    How many people, besides hardline fanboys, still take the self-appointed Perk Buster seriously after he himself got perk-busted?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5420 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to steven crawford,

    I too, would like to see changes to the electoral systom, that would lead to less poll influenced voting habits.

    Just to think outside the box for a second, I'd like to see changes that lead to more poll influenced politician behavior. I'd like more signal to pass through our triennial popular vote, but even with the perfect system I think we're already nearing the limit of what can be achieved by that. Even if every nuance of our little tick in a box is perfectly captured and meted out its proportional influence, it's still a system in which more than 70% of the people elected on the night will be from the Nationolaboural party, and they will spend the next 3 years picking and choosing amongst whatever popular (or unpopular indicators) that they like.

    I'm always a little bit baffled when people get bitter on a PM for following polls, like popular opinion isn't supposed to be what democratically elected leaders should be considering. The only part that embitters me is that they get to be so selective about which polls they do follow. But this process of becoming informed about what people want, using the power of statistical analysis is not, in itself, some terrible evil. It could just be less piecemeal and arbitrary, more formalized, more public, more open, less driven by rich and/or powerful minority interests. Then we'd be approaching a more participatory system.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    How many people, besides hardline fanboys, still take the self-appointed Perk Buster seriously after he himself got perk-busted?

    Someone at the Herald must have a thing for Rodney. How else to explain his flickering afterlife since suffering the ignominy of being deposed by the sorry carcass of Don Brash.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to BenWilson,

    Just to think outside the box for a second, I’d like to see changes that lead to more poll influenced politician behavior.

    This is where I’d like to be more quick at typing, and thinking.

    I wonder how much effort going into polling children, when pollititions make decisions about there autonomy.

    I’m also thinking critically, about how poll research is being used by people who have the power to inform us of our needs and wants – thru comercial radio, Tellevision and glossy print.

    It would be nice to see the big political partys, (Greens included) put more effort into recognizeing the benefits of a more dynamic and diverce parliament. I get the impression that The big partys, (Greens included) are putting that polling data into developing there how to gain “market share” strategies. The obvios way to get the maximize market share, is to bring to avoid saying anything controversial, or to far outside of the square.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to steven crawford,

    Just To add, I also acknowledge the effort James Shaw and the Greens put into bringing MMP about. I just hope it's not for bugger all.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to steven crawford,

    This is where I’d like to be more quick at typing, and thinking.

    FWIW, I think you do fine.

    The obvios way to get the maximize market share, is to bring to avoid saying anything controversial, or to far outside of the square.

    Yes. Also, I find it hard to get hip to any system that has internalized a market economy so much that political parties would see themselves as companies and voters as their punters. It's not how I see my own political consciousness, as a consumer of big promises and lies, that I pay for with my vote. But, crappy as such a reality is, I don't object to such a "company" doing market research any more than I do for actual real companies. It's how they make their products better for their customers, at least to some extent. The side effect of them using it to get away with crappy product just by knowing how to target their punters better is a stink reality about the level of ignorance about the product that is widespread in punterland. Breaking through that veil of ignorance is more the work of third parties. Expecting the system to do it itself, for companies to have any interest in setting up an environment in which they have to work harder to get less sales, is not realistic.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to BenWilson,

    I’m always a little bit baffled when people get bitter on a PM for following polls, like popular opinion isn’t supposed to be what democratically elected leaders should be considering.

    Yes but.

    Only some people get polled. Only some people respond to polls. People only respond to the question being asked in the poll. And most importantly sometimes people ask for one thing but need something different.

    It's relatively easy to do things that are popular. It is a much harder thing to do the things that are right and even harder to do the things that will be right in the future.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4451 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Only some people get polled. Only some people respond to polls. People only respond to the question being asked in the poll. And most importantly sometimes people ask for one thing but need something different.

    I agree. Responding to the populace isn’t usually a bad thing, but ignoring large parts of the populace because they’re unlikely to ever vote for you anyway, if they vote at all? Not necessarily so, and yet that's what I see this government as doing quite a lot of. The government’s meant to be governing for everyone, regardless of who voted it in.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Brent Jackson, in reply to BenWilson,

    I’m always a little bit baffled when people get bitter on a PM for following polls, like popular opinion isn’t supposed to be what democratically elected leaders should be considering.

    Leaders are supposed to lead. Not be buffeted about by public opinion. National recently dismissed a bill asking for Warrants of Fitness on rental properties. A kid has now died and the poorly maintained state house they lived in was partially to blame. Now the PM comes out and says that maybe some sort of Warrant of Fitness on rental properties is feasible after all. Bit bloody late for that kid ...

    It shouldn't require a martyr to make the government consider good policy.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 615 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Brent Jackson,

    It shouldn't require a martyr to make the government consider good policy.

    Perhaps it's a sign of how far Cameron Slater has been thrown onto the back foot that he hasn't challenged a member of the dead child's family to a boxing match.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4591 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Brent Jackson,

    It shouldn’t require a martyr to make the government consider good policy.

    Martyr #2 courtesy of Duncan Garner.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5420 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Brent Jackson,

    Leaders are supposed to lead. Not be buffeted about by public opinion

    You aren't going to convince me of that point just by claiming it again, or forming it as a truism. If an opinion poll showing that people now want Warrants of Fitness for rentals caused the government to decide that is a good idea, then I'm glad I don't have to wait until the next election for them to "lead" us into it by putting it in their manifesto and campaigning on it, before doing anything. Responding to public desire (which can itself also lag behind genuine need) isn't in itself a bad thing. Sure, deaths from poor housing could have been prevented. By National. And Labour before them, and National before them, and so on into the ancient world. But they weren't. At some point a public consciousness of an urgent need reaches a sufficiently critical point that change is a good idea, and I'm glad that being pigheaded about the purity of our electoral signalling as the way for the government to get it's mandate isn't stopping some good being done (so long as it actually does get done - I'll wait and see on this actual point).

    Only some people get polled. Only some people respond to polls. People only respond to the question being asked in the poll. And most importantly sometimes people ask for one thing but need something different.

    This is the more serious criticism of my point. But just take the word "Poll" out and replace it with the electoral process and you'll see that your points here apply in spades to the alternative.

    Only some people get to vote. Only some people do vote. People can only vote for what is on the ballot. And most importantly sometimes people ask for some kind of government, but need something different.

    We have SFA ability to signal through our votes, particularly on the actual things that do matter to us. You don't get to vote on whether we should have Warrant of Fitnesses for rentals, but you can answer an opinion poll on it. After the poll a level of confidence in how much people feel about WOFs for rentals has actual data behind it, whereas after an election it's still all speculation and reckons. We end up having to take polls just to find out why people voted the way they did.

    It’s relatively easy to do things that are popular.

    Not always. There are many popular propositions that have never been acted on, because there is more than just popular opinion influencing them. Sometimes there are strong institutional barriers, or influential minority interests, and sometimes the popular things are actually quite hard to do in and of themselves. Otherwise the public health system in the USA would long since have been fixed.

    It is a much harder thing to do the things that are right and even harder to do the things that will be right in the future.

    "Right" is way, way, way more arbitrary than "popular". You could personally just say that they've never done anything right, and we'd be arguing all day about whether that was true or not. But you couldn't easily say that something was popular or not without some decent evidence, and any evidence against would probably do a lot to sway you. "Right" is a value judgment.

    So comparing "popular" with "right" is like comparing apples to some unspecified other thing that isn't apples. It's not even apples to oranges, because we know what oranges are. But what "right" is is simply ... undefined.

    Which is why it's not much of a guide to say that the government is there to do the "right" thing. Of course they are. But what is that? In my opinion, it's not always even vaguely opposed to what is popular, since that in itself is the popular judgment of what is right. It's only wrong to the extent that the population is wrong.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

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