Hard News: Dirty Politics
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Facebook is trialling disappearing posts a la SnapChat in NZ. Could there be any truth to the rumour that messers Slater & Collins signed up immediately?
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Your connection to your home is not just a function of your presence in it.
Exactly.
I left for four years and my visits back were fleeting, but that didn't mean I wasn't invested in my country. I would have been really peeved to have my voting rights removed.
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nzlemming, in reply to
OK, I signed a declaration, but then it occurred to me (having taken my passport, which no one was interested in) how do they *check* (indeed, *do* they check?) on the “having visited” requirement?
They have access to the database of exits and entries to the country. DIA keeps it as part of passport control. It's also how passports are verified electronically at the border.
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BenWilson, in reply to
I left for four years and my visits back were fleeting, but that didn’t mean I wasn’t invested in my country.
Indeed. I only use soldiers as a particularly clear example of how unrighteous the idea is, since they could actually be dying for the country, but I don't think you need to be dying for it to have rights in it. I'd say your rights should be perpetual, and simply optional. If you really have no interest in the country, then you just don't vote. If you vote, almost by definition you have an interest. Hell, you have more of an interest than 25% of the population who don't vote but happen to live here. At least you actually care.
Personally, I didn't vote when I lived in Australia for 5 years. But that was because I actually didn't care enough.
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izogi, in reply to
If you vote, almost by definition you have an interest.
Not necessarily. The main premise of the Expat Party, which didn’t manage to register for this election, was a single issue thing to utilise seats in New Zealand’s parliament for lobbying the Australian government to improve conditions of kiwis in Australia. (It looks like they've now added a slightly larger manifesto to their website.) I think it’s a good thing for the NZ government to look out for kiwis overseas within reason, but it’s an example of how overseas NZ citizens could be motivated to vote on NZ’s parliament with little or no interest in what’s actually happening in NZ.
Based on the last election, it’d take about 100,000+ votes to start threatening the current 5% threshold. From recent overseas voting numbers (closeer to 20-30k), that’s not presently realistic without substantial support for an issue within NZ.
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BenWilson, in reply to
it’s an example of how overseas NZ citizens could be motivated to vote on NZ’s parliament with little or no interest in what’s actually happening in NZ
Sure, but I do that too, even from within NZ. My beliefs about NZ foreign policy are part of my choices. What NZ does in Afganistan matters to me. And what it does with respect to expats in Australia definitely matters to me.
It's a big win that we finally managed to get the Australians to allow us to bring our super back here, and a big win for the country too. My brother and his wife lives and works in Australia with 2 of their kids, and it matters to me what happens to them, and it matters to them what happens to us over here. Probably, they will return one day.
It also matters to Kiwis who are currently in NZ what the Australian government does with respect to Kiwis, because they might also want to move to Australia, so having a strong lobby here is not a bad idea.
I don't think it would work, but I also don't think the democratic right to asking for it is eroded by absence. It might be the only voting right they actually have. I never got to vote in Australia.
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Rob S, in reply to
Complicit in that they are fed political attack lines from a party without looking fully into the claims that are being made and why. Why did John Armstrong the Heralds senior political journo run a David Cunliffe must go article on a very flimsy basis that has been seen to be meaningless and John Key states that he is aware of more evidence and then it all disappears down the memory hole?
The role of the media in holding our Government to account for some serious misdeeds is a fundamental task that has got force in law and is now being relinquished for tattle about the vapid deeds of pop stars.
If the established news organisations aren’t up to the task then who?
Will it be the law of the jungle with wealth being the sole determinant of who gets to frame the direction we head in as a society with the occasional Nicky Hager putting himself in the firing line of a well organised campaign of vilification?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes etc.
Be you of the left or right this is of fundamental importance to our country. -
Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
I left for four years and my visits back were fleeting, but that didn’t mean I wasn’t invested in my country. I would have been really peeved to have my voting rights removed.
But I'm allowing absences of up to 4 years, so long as you were living here before then. I could probably be persuaded to extend that to 5 years. I think that's more fair than just allowing votes to anyone who's visited in the last 3 years, which, as others have pointed out, is highly dependent on finances and available leave.
If I understand correctly, lots of you are arguing that voting should be allowed to any New Zealand citizen, anywhere, (plus anyone who lives in New Zealand without a mandated exit date.)
I just don't think there's anything very magic about citizenship. There are lots of people who happen to be New Zealand citizens but who don't consider themselves New Zealanders; and lots of people who consider themselves New Zealanders who for one reason or another aren't or can't be citizens. According to your argument, someone who lived in NZ from the age of, say, 2, and who is a permanent resident but not a citizen, but who's overseas studying for a few years with no funds for holidays home, couldn't vote - but my aforementioned cousin could.
Maybe you think the permanent resident should be able to vote too? OK, let's change the example to someone who lives in NZ from the age of 2 on a resident visa, and who thus loses the right to return to NZ as soon as they leave the country, but they'll probably apply for and get a visa to return once they've finished studying overseas. I'd say this person has a better argument to be able to vote here than my cousin, wouldn't you? I'm not arguing that this person should be able to vote, but I am arguing that my cousin shouldn't - and that therefore it's not citizenship alone which should dictate the right of people overseas to vote in NZ elections.
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Angela Hart, in reply to
I totally agree with this Rob. I don't know what we (as a country) need to do about the present situation with the media, but we certainly must do something, and quickly.
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If the established news organisations aren’t up to the task then who?
Alternative media, particularly specialist commentators.
All media outlets have some kind of bias, it comes back to individual responsibility in applying due diligence for finding reliable sources.
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Danielle, in reply to
Maybe you think the permanent resident should be able to vote too?
Heh. It just occurred to me that I *did* lose my right to vote when I was away, because I was a permanent resident until my late 20s, and only got my NZ citizenship by descent a few months before my return. (That explains why I can't remember how I voted in 1999: I *couldn't* vote in 1999.) Your last paragraph describes me almost exactly!
To be honest I don't really understand why citizenship (and turning up to vote somewhere) shouldn't be the bright line between voting and not voting from overseas: it's almost impossible to work out who's truly invested in NZ's future, and moreover it's actually not up to us to judge WHY people are voting, is it? Plenty of people within the country use the franchise in ways we might think are ill-considered, but that's up to them.
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I can technically still vote in UK elections, but in practice it's pretty hard to do so - you have to register each year in writing to your former council and they send you ballot papers by post less than two weeks before the election date which you need to get back in time (or you can have a UK resident vote for you as a proxy).
With that, and the fact that basically you've got three right-wing parties to choose from, it doesn't seem worth it.
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krothville, in reply to
Are those 100k unique views?
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In the Slater v Blomfield case, Justice Raynor Asher has declared that Slater is a journalist. That will probably come as a surprise to genuine journos and to people like me who believe that putting your own byline on others' writing or accepting money to ruin people's lives really struggles to qualify as journalism.
However Slater can't claim this as a win.
Although Slater has blogged over the judgment saying "it's official now" - Justice Asher's full judgment says the sources Slater was trying to protect need to be disclosed in the full defamation proceedings.
Justice Asher said the case was not a whistle-blowing issue in which sources needed to be protected.
"Any public interest in protecting sources must be further diminished when there is evidence that a personal vendetta appears to be driving (Slater's reports)," Justice Asher said.
"Further, where the material provided by the sources appears to have been unlawfully obtained, that is a further factor lessening the public interest in the free flow of information."
The justice said the blog published by Slater "are extreme and vindictive and have the hallmarks of a private feud."
Justice Asher also states that the sources used by Slater came (from a) "hard-drive and other documents (that) appear to have been obtained illegitimately."
Slater has therefore been ordered to comply with discovery requirements in the substantive defamation hearing ahead and must pay Blomfield's costs.
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stephen walker, in reply to
Paul, i was told a few years ago that if my children (citizens by descent) lived in NZ for a certain length of time, they could apply for full citizenship. has this changed?
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Well, since my daughter is also a citizen by descent, and there are probably others out there with similar questions, here's Internal Affairs' page on the matter. Note:
If your child is living in New Zealand and intends to keep living here they might be able to change their citizenship from descent to grant. There are requirements that need to be met for this. They will not need to attend a citizenship ceremony.
If your child is not living in New Zealand at the moment they probably will not be able to get citizenship by grant.
Then there's more info divided into age bands - under 14, 14 - 15, and 16 and over.
ETA: Somebody already mentioned this, I'm sure, but I'm also getting a "Error 404
HTTP Web Server: Lotus Notes Exception - Entry not found in index" if I ask for more info. -
David Hall, in reply to
If that’s the extent of the time someone’s spent here in the last 3 years, they don’t live here, so why should they be allowed to vote here? It's not like the outcome of the election affects their day to day life.
I feel we should be doing everything possible to encourage people to vote - both by helping them feel engaged with and informed about the political process, and by widening rather than restricting eligibility. It was very heartening being at the New Zealand embassy here in Berlin with five other New Zealanders all of whom felt strongly enough to vote from the other side of the world.
For myself being overseas has not diminished my attachment to the New Zealand political process. A major reason I flew home earlier this year rather than next year (which would have been financially easier) was to ensure my eligibility.
All my close family and most of my close friends are still living in New Zealand, and though I now keep up with politics in Europe, I still feel I know much more about and am more invested in New Zealand politics.
I'm am informed about, attached to and invested in New Zealand society - but can't for now physically live there. I damn well want my right to vote.
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
Slater is a journalist.
I'd be interested to see the judgement, which doesn't seem to have come out yet.
In particular, did Slater give any evidence denying that he habitually took money to run lines?
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nzlemming, in reply to
Slater has therefore been ordered to comply with discovery requirements in the substantive defamation hearing ahead and must pay Blomfield’s costs.
heheheheh
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Paul Campbell, in reply to
Paul, i was told a few years ago that if my children (citizens by descent) lived in NZ for a certain length of time, they could apply for full citizenship. has this changed?
Well when I investigated this 7-8 years ago I was told "yes, they have to go through a naturalisation ceremony". I'm pretty sure I went in to the Dept of Immigration and asked, of course that's one of the govt offices that National have closed in Dunedin, can't do that any more.
This web page gives more hope that it's easier - we've been lazy and both kids are about to graduate Uni, they've been here 10 years - now there's a little urgency.
I'd hoped it was a simple as some computer that watches passports move through airports and totes up the days and applies a check to your citizenship record when it hits whatever the residency requirement for applying for citizenship is. Sadly no.
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
I’m am informed about, attached to and invested in New Zealand society – but can’t for now physically live there. I damn well want my right to vote.
If anyone can present evidence showing that the majority of New Zealand citizens overseas currently denied the right to vote by the 3 year rule do eventually return to New Zealand, I might consider changing my opinion. I’d like to see a chart showing likelihood of return to NZ by years away from NZ. At the point it crosses below (I’ll be generous) 66%, that would be the cutoff for me: if you’ve been away from New Zealand for the length of time after which two-thirds of NZers overseas don’t come back, you’re probably not coming back, so you don’t get to decide what happens here.
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Looking in the Way Back Machine (PA wont let me link to the page at archive.org directly, you’ll have to paste it in manually) .....
It appears that that page didn’t exist prior to about a month ago – the broken links actually worked back then but lead one back to a “how to apply for citizenship” page that has since been replaced.
The reason or the different age thing (<14, 14-16, >16) seems to likely be part of the general applying for citizenship thing, kids under 16 need their parent’s permission, kids under 14 don't have to meet language and character requirements.
$470 plus lots of paper work for something that ought to be “I see you’ve lived in NZ on your NZ passport for 5 years, let me check that box for you” – as I said it’s a form of “second class citizenship”
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it's a happening thing!
The Colliers International 28 page supplement, loftily heralded by fallen archangel and part-time spruiker, John Key during the first Leaders Debate, has arrived in The Press today.I'd say Warwick Isaacs or Peter Townsend gave Key a heads up on this, by the look of it, and what a hodgepodge of a yawn it is - though Townsend has presciently taken Russell's Meth Election meme to heart, headlining that the 'Central City (is) Crystallising'.
Their revelatory map of projects in Chchch only has the stadium on the Lichfield/Madras/Cashel block, when its footprint runs from Hereford to Tuam, there's a 'Catherdral Square' and a 'Milennium Hotel' - and can someone tell their designers that reversing sub-10pt type out of screened lime green backgrounds (or red or light blue) does nothing to help legibility or comprehension, especially on web offset printing on newsprint...
it's as if they just wanted a flashy piece of ephemera that no one will really read.
Oh!
Maybe it is advertising for National then... -
Rich of Observationz, in reply to
But it's hard to see how it could be otherwise without giving automatic citizenship to people three or four generations removed from a connection to NZ.
I wonder if it will become an issue as more Māori people migrate and have families overseas. Somebody born in Australia with a Māori grandparent, but parents who were both Australian born would be accepted by their iwi as tangata whenua, right, but not by NZ as a citizen?
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Danielle, in reply to
I was previously in the position of being on my iwi register but not being a NZ citizen. And as a citizen by descent I needed to have my children in New Zealand or they would have had no NZ citizenship despite also being on the iwi register. It's an odd one, that.
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