Hard News by Russell Brown

Read Post

Hard News: Lost Men

97 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 Newer→ Last

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to mark taslov,

    Mark, I gather that you have taken what I wrote quite personally. Since I didn't frame it so, I'm puzzled about that. I take the point that we all have attitudes and opinions deriving from our cultural niche & developmental trajectory, and I'm not aware of any bias against those I'm unfamiliar with.

    I realise it may be just a question of temperament, and some folk get more emotional about social commentary & political analysis than others. I'm considerably more dispassionate nowadays. I was extremely angry & hostile as I entered adulthood long ago. I've been in victim sub-groups - I understand how they generate beliefs that shape our world-view.

    So nowadays I accept that all we can really do is our best, to find common ground where possible, and build consensus on that. Human nature drives us to try and persuade others at times that our view is better than theirs - I try to avoid that but if it seems that I'm doing it then I must accept that others can misinterpret my intent in those instances. Best to then just agree to disagree rather than argue particular points, I feel. So I'll just offer the observation that the meeting of minds only happens when people are ready, willing and able, and the time is right for it.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Mark, I gather that you have taken what I wrote quite personally.

    Dennis, thanks for your response, I genuinely didn’t. I’ll readily admit – based on feedback I’ve received throughout the years – that despite my ambitions, I’m not particularly able when it comes to conveying my tone accurately in written form, I generally just tend to turn the volume up to eleven and hope something lands.

    For clarity; I see views like yours on this topic regularly, and simply put, as far as I’m concerned this is a form of gaslighting:

    I’m aware that younger generations in recent decades have tended to view and call anything they don’t like racist, so as to devalue it as a technical term. A symptom of collective brain death?

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2240 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to Sacha,

    I’ve provided evidence which you choose to ignore.

    I’m not sure what you are arguing though, you mention « gendered violence » - are you arguing that there is a different pattern of violence based on gender or not?

    Since Nov 2016 • 260 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Attachment

    Mark, I gather that you have taken what I wrote quite personally.

    On the other hand, what Neil has been writing I take very personally, because I’m acutely aware of how the type of absolutist gender binary agenda he’s pushing destroys lives. Our threshold for ‘evidence’ has sunk to extraordinarily low levels it seems.

    I can recognise the bias and follies all too well – a couple of week’s back he’d have had us believe Narcissistic Personality Disorder was the exclusive domain of Jami-Lee Ross or white males or that JLR was the only abuser or bed hopper in Parliament. Marama Davidson set things straight on the latter points and most research indicates that NPD affects something like 6% of the population i.e. about 200,000 New Zealanders.

    With regard to gender/sex, the barrow he’s pushing is very much the cisnormative soup du jour, a symptom of top down messaging which has long since and continues to dominate gender discourse in 2018 Aotearoa e.g. when the Prime Minister was asked on 19 January:

    Are you going to find out the baby’s gender?

    Without hesitation, nor attempt to correct the journalist she erased the lived reality of every trans person in the country (12:05) by promptly responding

    Ah we already know

    Because cis people by and large maintain that they do know the gender of babies and furthermore that sex and gender are to be conflated. So it wasn’t unusual that the PM chose to only "acknowledge those women" (11:45) who’d given birth before her rather than inclusively acknowledging everyone; the men and other gender minorities who’ve gone through similar.

    Similarly it wasn’t unusual that leading up to the birth the couple continued to entertain by indulging the media a number of times as to whether or not they’d revealed the baby’s sex – going to some substantive lengths to play up the importance of the sex – instead of making an attempt – in keeping with Labour policy of empowering and ensuring that ’Rainbow New Zealanders can live in safety and dignity’. of dismissing this salaciousness by acknowledging that genitals are an inadequate gauge for ascertaining gender, that the sexing of infants, the expectations and imposition which accompany this active engagement in fomenting cissexist ideology and assiduously maintaining cisnormative narratives causes harm for gender minorities, GNC and intersex people in the community.

    In the video, prior to the first punch, a girl calls out: “Are you a boy or a girl?” the victim responds: “Does it really matter?” “Yeah it does”, a girl says before the victim replies: “No, it doesn’t” then she is punched.

    So yeah Dennis, that’s the kind of stuff I take personally. Incidentally yesterday was intersex day of remembrance and solidarity as yet the Government of kindness or whatever continues to ignore the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child’s recommendations calling for an end to the colonial practice of Intersex Genital mutilation in New Zealand.

    • implement a child rights-based health care protocol for intersex children that guarantees the rights to bodily integrity and self-determination

    • investigate incidents of surgical and other medical treatment of intersex children without informed consent, and provide redress

    • educate professionals on biological and physical sexual diversity and consequences of unnecessary interventions on children

    • provide free access to surgical intervention and treatment related to their intersex condition for 16 to 18 year old intersex children

    It doesn't matter how many teachers or teachers assistants we've got if they're not teaching the truth.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2240 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    oops – some corrections needed in this paragraph:

    Likewise it wasn’t unusual that leading up to the birth the couple continued to entertain by indulging the media a number of times as to whether or not they’d revealed the baby’s sex – going to some substantive lengths to play up the importance of the sex – instead of making an attempt – in keeping with Labour policy of empowering and ensuring that ’Rainbow New Zealanders can live in safety and dignity’ – to dismiss this salaciousness by acknowledging that genitals are an inadequate gauge for ascertaining gender, and that the sexing of infants – the expectations and imposition which accompany this active engagement in fomenting cissexist ideology and assiduously maintaining cisnormative narratives – causes harm for gender minorities, GNC and intersex people in the community.

    In the video, prior to the first punch, a girl calls out: “Are you a boy or a girl?” the victim responds: “Does it really matter?” “Yeah it does”, a girl says before the victim replies: “No, it doesn’t” then she is punched.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2240 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Neil,

    I’ve provided evidence

    No, you have provided us with nothing but your reckons ever since this claim:

    Males do have a tendency to become obsessed, to hold grudges and to seek revenge. That’s genetics.

    If you want to come out with something like that, put some links where your mouth is. This is not a site where such an assertion is accepted just because you say so.

    Or expect nobody here to take you seriously. Your choice.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19543 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to mark taslov,

    To be honest, differentiating sex & gender is not something I've thought much about - although I see why it would be ultra-important for some. And a vital part of identity politics. My own relevant personal experience is merely having a strong sense of having been female in my incarnation prior to this one.

    Also, one of my astrologer friends from the eighties became an alternative therapist and she uses a hi-tech diagnostic system that supposedly reads relevant past lives as context for current life situations (along with more than a dozen various organic or biophysical functions). Yeah, as a physics graduate my sceptical side reserves judgment, but a lifetime of investigating alternative belief systems keeps my mind open. Anyway, on five different occasions in recent years it has referred to a different past incarnation as female - my friend says such a consistent pattern hasn't happened to any of her other clients. Various different foreign ethnic contexts in different periods of history. How it rationalised relevance was in each case quite illuminating, so my inner bullshit detector gave it cautious approval...

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Again what astonishes me is how you buy into all that, yet when a Māori person calls Don Brash racist you discredit it as ‘brain death’.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2240 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    My own relevant personal experience is merely having a strong sense of having been female in my incarnation prior to this one.

    Are you just trying to be a dick, or do you really have no insight into how other people might feel about what you're saying.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4035 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to steven crawford,

    People will make of it what they will, Steven. Not my problem. What's your problem?? Have you no insight into the spiritual dimension of the world? Do you deny that it exists? Many do. Nothing wrong with that, of course...

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to mark taslov,

    Ah but I didn't actually do so. Read it again. Asserting something is vastly different than raising the question. You must be aware of that. Perhaps you were misrepresenting me inadvertently?? So easy to be seduced into subjective reactions and lose the connection with what folks are actually saying.

    The sociopathic tendency of leftists to demonise rightists via lying about what they say or believe is a blight on politics. To me it isn't just unethical, it's immoral. And I'm not even on the political right. Just prefer fairness for all.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 254 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    Thanks for your response Dennis. The speciousness reminds me of a younger me on these boards – a bad habit fomented by an inability to publicly address certain aspects of my lived reality in local cyberspace due to fear motivated by trauma punctuated conditioning. A tendency I feel – with the patience and goodwill of the community here – I’ve largely managed to move beyond.

    As I said earlier – and I’m not straying from this – I see your discrediting of people calling Brash a racist as gaslighting – which – as I also said earlier – I have considerable experience of from all sorts of people – caregivers, teachers, journalists, you name it, cis folk stepping up to gaslight me is the story of my life.

    People feel entitled to set me straight on all manner of things related to who they think I am, or what I experience, to school me, humiliate me on what cissexism or transphobia is because they ’wrote a book about it’, to chastise me for using this pseudonym because they read it as male and they’re trans-misogynists whose feminism involves trying to correct trans folk with regards to who they think we are and should be. These are your heroes, community leaders, political movers and shakers, the establishment, the elite.

    I’m not talking about Dennis Frank on various New Zealand left wing websites – I’m talking about high profile celebrities who’ve gone out of their way to gaslight me about my experiences of sexual assault, or sexual violence; an Auckland Local Board member who retweeted cissexist material sexualising pubescent boys on Twitter, and who when informed about this, appended a disclaimer (about the cissexism) while continuing to disseminate the cissexist material sexualising pubescent boys; folk with a feminist ideology similar to Neil’s – prepared to go to similar lengths to protect it from being challenged by those with experiences it erases. Folk who third gender us when the prospect of us talking about non-heterosexual IPV we experience conflicts with heteronormative narratives and agendas.

    I’m talking about primary school teachers who tell our parents ’your kid’ll grow out of’ being trans, I’m talking about a rapist who implied they assaulted me because they thought i’m a NAZI. I’m talking about you and your false equivalence of with regard to reincarnation, neglecting that such a scenario would likely entail every single person – on good odds – having been reincarnated a female at one or multiple points rendering the entire strawperson moot to the equation. I’m talking about being chased around the house by my wife with a carving knife and having experienced IPV in this relationship for 7 years with nowhere to turn or escape to because the Government never came through with either its welfare reforms nor its rainbow policies nor the requisite progressiveness to even acknowledge these issues exist.

    When you’ve passed Gaslighting 301 and you’re onto the Post-Grad and you’re clear beyond a skerrick of uncertainty that the cavalry are not coming to the rescue.

    We all do it to some extent – every single one of us – at some time or another – we second guess others’ perceptions – generally relatively innocuously and other times with disastrous effect – and so when you get on the gaslight like this;

    I’m aware that younger generations in recent decades have tended to view and call anything they don’t like racist, so as to devalue it as a technical term. A symptom of collective brain death?

    Well you can call that what you want – justify it as you feel you need to – but I’m done with it – you don’t wanna show me nothing, but you’re telling me everything. I’m acutely aware even discussing this stuff how painful it is listening to “allies” waffle on – how white this site is – and how ultimately I’m just giving you oxygen when I should be – as the HRC suggests – giving nothing to racism.

    Don't @ me.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2240 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to Sacha,

    If you want to come out with something like that, put some links where your mouth is.

    I have provided one link and referenced the Dunedin Longitudinal study whose finding on the genetics of male antisocial behaviour is relevant.

    If you feel that those two sources are problematic I’m interested to know why.

    There is also the daily evidence of males acting more aggressively than women. Which has been the case for a long period of our history and in by far the majority of societies.

    I’m surprised this is in any way controversial.

    Since Nov 2016 • 260 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to Neil,

    Parts of your claim remaining somewhat controversial are that “holding grudges” and “seeking revenge” are not synonymous with “aggressive behaviour”, nor are they exclusively male preserves, nor do they form any part of the Dunedin Longitudinal study’s findings.
    Accepting that males do tend to show more aggressive behaviour on average than females – even there, the mechanism is still not exclusively genetic; it also is influenced by socialisation towards gendered patterns of behaviour (and learned behaviour will also be influenced by different cost/benefit results of aggressive behaviour for individuals with larger muscle bulk, which of course is gender-associated).

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1820 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to linger,

    the mechanism is still not exclusively genetic

    No it’s not and what aspects are are of course to be remedied by social action – which is what I would say liberal democracy is. Just that attempt to counter our worse nature.

    But what is considered to be socially caused has to an extent an underlying genetic component. Our social environment is other people who are influenced by their genes. Our emotions are a product of our brain structure that eveloved to enable us to live in groups.

    Obsession and revenge are common elements of male violence. There’s some evidence that this has a genetic component – linked to above. It’s not straight forward but any slight variance would throw up particular individuals in large populations. Many of the mass shootings in the US are by men with obsessive grudges. That they are so lethal is a product of the social environment – easy access to guns - with a social remedy.

    Since Nov 2016 • 260 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to linger,

    muscle bulk, which of course is gender-associated

    Not to dispute your wider point but just to keep things loosely inclusive, and not going full Labour Party on the issue, if I may correct:

    learned gendered behaviour will also be influenced by different cost/benefit results of aggressive behaviour for individuals with larger muscle bulk, which of course is sex-associated

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2240 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov, in reply to Neil,

    For those following at home, as citation for what’s being discussed MAOA: 5 common myths debunked (content warning – trans exclusionary):

    To sum everything up the interaction between genetics and behaviour is very, very complex to put it mildly. Whilst it is very easy to make bold statements such as “low MAO-A activity leads to increased aggressiveness”, a modern day of equivalent “of a pill for every ill”the reality is much less clear.

    Whilst there is definitely an association with the 2R, 3R and 5R forms of MAOA and increased aggression, the actual contribution of MAOA is unknown, but most likely low

    A few points at this juncture,

    1. this thread sure is living up to its headline.
    2. the shifting definitions in conflating ‘vengeful’ or ‘obsessive’ behaviour and then switching that to mean ‘aggressive’ behaviour is again what I’d describe as a form gaslighting.
    3. when sacha stated "I do not need anything further from you on the topic" and you continued @ing him – that’s a consent/boundary issue worth consideration.

    As Emma first responded to you:

    Social conditioning.

    Which ties in with both this from the link:

    The associations only appeared when a large enough population was studied, and this suggests that there are lots of other factors which are also influencing how aggressive we are, not just MAOA. Some studies have failed to find a link between MAOA and aggression

    and this:

    But! all these reports come with a very large caveat. Whilst they do show that the MAOA-L forms are associated with increased aggression, having an MAOA-L form does not mean that someone will be aggressive, there are numerous other factors associated, with the most important thought to be early life abuse

    For me what confirms the validity of Emma’s response is simply that the USA is an outlier in issues of this nature – there are evidently a number of contributing conditions to what is – at this point – a very American problem.

    Between 1983 to 2013, 119 mass shootings took place around the world. Sixty-six percent were in the U.S.

    I’ll also point out that a trend has emerged Neil where you seem comfortable outright ignoring the women on this thread – there’s nothing remotely novel about this tendency but worth pointing it out all the same.

    Coming back to your original point re: ‘vengeful’ or ‘obsessive’ behaviour- and bringing in findings from rainbow communities – which despite smaller cohorts function as controls for heteronormative assumptions, this is more relavant to what we may describe as ’vengeful’ or ‘obsessive’ behaviour’:

    it was hypothesized that homicide brutality will vary with the offender’s sexual orientation and gender, such that the percentage of killings coded as brutal will be higher for (a) gay and lesbian relative to heterosexual relations, (b) men relative to women, (c) gay relative to heterosexual men, and (d) lesbian relative to heterosexual women. The rates of intimate partner homicide were also hypothesized to vary with the gender of the partners, such that (a) homicide rates will be higher in gay relative to heterosexual and lesbian couples and (b) homicide rates will be lowest in lesbian couples. The results support all but one prediction derived from the two hypotheses. We predicted that men would kill their partners more brutally than would women, but the results indicate that the opposite is true.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2240 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to mark taslov,

    sex-associated

    Thanks! (I ran out of editing time, then figured "associated" was a sufficient hedge as it makes no claim of direct causation. But it's better to make it explicit.)

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1820 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to mark taslov,

    I’m surprised you haven’t accused me of weaponising comas.

    Going back to the original post, there are two examples given of Lost Men - Cesar Sayoc and Robert Bowers. Their behaviour could be described as obsessive, in that they spent a great deal of time and envergy on their preoccupations and revenge motivated in that they sort to get back at those who they thought were doing wrong.

    There’s a degree of compulsive fixation that leads them into a dark world and eventually to mass violence.

    Since Nov 2016 • 260 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    ...and then there is that other gender champion Karl du Fresne on his epic quest to turn 'role modelling' into 'virtue-signalling'...
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/108389098/entertaining-and-making-a-statement-about-gender-equality

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7743 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Neil,

    I’m surprised you haven’t accused me of weaponising comas.

    Surely 'comas' would be 'sleeper agents'
    or perhaps more 'cometary' than 'commentary'...?
    :- )

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7743 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    We watch TV dramas for entertainment, not to be morally improved or have our cultural sensitivity enhanced....At worst it conveys a faint but unsettling whiff of Stalinist-style totalitarianism, which used art to enforce ideological orthodoxy and ruthlessly suppressed anything that didn't conform.

    Pretty silly stuff from du Fresne. We tell stories for a variety of reasons and have to make them entertaining to keep peoples’ attention.

    Telling stories is a fascinating ability we have which relies on brain structure that evolved in order to tell stories. But I would think that.

    Since Nov 2016 • 260 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.