Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Vision and dumbassery

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  • Brent Jackson, in reply to izogi,

    Tread on people like this instead of including them and they’ll do more than just disagree with you. They’ll start to hate you. National’s making sure that everything National is actually about John Key. And people who somehow haven’t been affected can’t understand why others “hate John Key” so much.

    Well put. Extremely well put.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 615 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow, in reply to John Farrell,

    Given Ian has admitted to a grip on the Village Idiot role, it's not insulting to say I simply don't understand Village Idiot-speak. Otherwise, I'd reply.
    I note no real attempts to classify Cunliffe's strengths as a potential Prime Minister as yet. Surely, that's not a big ask.
    Isogi gives a coherent argument in looking past Cunliffe in order to justify voting for Labour but I contend that the leader's strengths or otherwise are a critical factor.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    I note no real attempts to classify Cunliffe’s strengths as a potential Prime Minister as yet. Surely, that’s not a big ask.

    I would say that Cunliffe has undeniable strength as a potential Prime Minister, after all he is one.

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to Dean Wallis,

    Oh, now you are just using logic!

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    Interesting. This says it all, really.

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 487 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    Given Ian has admitted to a grip on the Village Idiot role, it’s not insulting to say I simply don’t understand Village Idiot-speak. Otherwise, I’d reply.

    What a pity. Most of it is in a few short comments under your own original quotes. Most of us bears of little brain seem to have managed – are you’re sure you’re not putting it in the too hard basket, because it suits you better to be perpetually offended (and even more offensive in return), rather than engaging on substance and potentially getting shot down?

    I note no real attempts to classify Cunliffe’s strengths as a potential Prime Minister as yet. Surely, that’s not a big ask.

    There are responses upthread to the effect that this is not solely a matter of Key versus Cunliffe on personal likeability or credibility. But anyway, as shown above you don’t seem either able or interested to properly defend the claims you make about Key on those points, so why should everyone acquiesce to your desired diversion and rush to talk about Cunliffe instead?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1609 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    I'd like to note, Ian, that "cornish patsy" made me snort. Nice.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow, in reply to Sam F,

    let me repeat. I don't understand Ian's lingo. Is it commonly spoken where you come from?
    As I"ve repeated. I did dissect my praise for Key on Page 4 of the 2014 Methane Election topic which I suspect may have answered many of Ian's musings.
    Please refer and get back to me.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • AndrewH, in reply to BenWilson,

    Thanks Ben, you nailed my thinking exactly. Which both saved me the effort of writing myself, and is quite reassuring.
    Despite a good analytical brain, I'm not emotionally immune from the rhetoric undermining IM - "too new, unproven, multi-headed bastard-child, personality-driven, doomed to failure, pwned by Dotcom.. etc".
    I've previously voted Green for both their integrity and policies, but that integrity has also frustrated me - I've felt they needed more mongrel to survive/achieve their potential. Now I see the opportunity in having a party which leaves the Greens free to be true to their values and at the same time injects the much-needed mogrel into the coalition. I don;t agree which a few things Hone says and does, but he has the scrapping gene, and unlike Winston it's not just to admire his own reflection as he flexes.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2008 • 33 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    "Sam, I hereby refer you to chapter three, subsection a, paragraph b of my self-published seventeen volume Key hagiography, entitled Gee, That John Key Fellow Sure Is Great."

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow, in reply to Danielle,

    You any serious ideas on why Cunliffe would be a competent PM? That would mean putting aside your cynicism for just a short while.
    Too much to ask?

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    let me repeat. I don’t understand Ian’s lingo. Is it commonly spoken where you come from?

    Planet Earth? It is quite common and that example is very, very clever.

    On Planet Key I am not sure what language is spoken, could it be Troll?

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    Isogi gives a coherent argument in looking past Cunliffe in order to justify voting for Labour but I contend that the leader’s strengths or otherwise are a critical factor.

    In relation to this, I’d contend that John Key isn’t leading National at all, at least in a traditional way. Sure, he’s the party leader and the PM, but his main criteria for selection has been as a marketing figurehead to sit in front.

    He avoids genuine confrontation (consider all that length of time he refused to show up on Radio NZ until he's had to), he flip-flops his positions and statements according to what pollsters tell him will be most popular at any one time, and whenever he’s genuinely challenged he falls to bits and starts lashing out in random directions with immature insults instead of actually addressing points.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    There are like four posts up there talking about how personality-driven politics are inherently bad for democracy and therefore Cunliffe's personal qualities are less important than the policies each party espouses, so feel free to engage with that argument any time you like.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow, in reply to Danielle,

    Perception but not reality Danielle. Politics are invariably personality-driven and aren't what good or bad governments are ultimately judged on.
    Were the following governments ineffectual because of their big-personality leaders...eg Lange, Clark, Obama, Thatcher, Clinton, Kennedy etc etc?
    I suspect backing off any attempt to table Cunliffe's strengths is in accordance with his poor ratings.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    whenever he’s genuinely challenged he falls to bits and starts lashing out in random directions with immature insults instead of actually addressing points.

    Scarily, that may well be a selling point for some of his supporters.

    Were the following governments ineffectual

    This doesn’t negate the point that personality shouldn’t be allowed to trump policy. Did any of these examples rely solely on personality? Whether or not you agree with their policies, they also had clear goals for their vision of society, established over a long political career -- none of them were parachuted into politics through backroom deals to be a figurehead. (Another argument against the primacy of personality cults is that several of these examples were arguably hampered by their personality. I would say Kennedy, Lange, Obama, Clark all underachieved relative to their -- lofty -- goals.)

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1890 posts Report Reply

  • Dean Wallis, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    Were the following governments ineffectual because of their big-personality leaders…eg Lange, Clark, Obama, Thatcher, Clinton, Kennedy etc etc?

    Don't forget Hitler, Stalin and Mao. I'm a little unclear on your point?

    Point Chevalier • Since Jan 2013 • 44 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow, in reply to Dean Wallis,

    My point is that personality-driven politics or government can be good or bad for democracy. Lange, Kennedy, Clark, Key…..good. Mao, Hitler, Stalin bad.
    But not all bad.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

  • Greg Dawson, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    The most important aspect of any potential priminister is well known to be his or her competence at the wearing of common business attire.

    I have not seen you address the crucial question of why you believe Key is a more accomplished dresser than Cunliffe, when clearly this is the major driver of most New Zealanders political thinking. At the end of the day, you haven’t even come clean on whether maternal assistance pertains.

    Frankly, I have to wonder if your refusal to address the sartorial elements of the campaign is due entirely to your inability to make a rational argument for Keys wardrobe mastery. You keep bringing up other elements of the campaign which everyone knows are not really important compared to this, so obviously you are just trying to avoid a point you know you can’t argue with.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 294 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Jake Starrow,

    My point is that personality-driven politics or government can be good or bad for democracy. Lange, Kennedy, Clark…..good. Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Key bad.
    But not all bad.

    There, fixed that up for you. But why Godwin a perfectly good concern troll?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Dean Wallis,

    On Planet Key I am not sure what language is spoken, could it be Troll?

    Listen for the Jamaican accents </nerd joke>

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Angela Hart,

    Why encourage him? He's distracting, he's annoying and he's wasting time we could be spending in a valuable exchange of ideas and information. IMHO he's best ignored, attempts to get him to engage in sensible discourse have been made aplenty.
    On the other hand we wouldn't have had Ian's pearl without Jake's irritation.

    Christchurch • Since Apr 2014 • 614 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to BenWilson,

    Ha!

    "John Key is not the PM you are looking for. Move along."

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to blindjackdog,

    And the Greens just come across as such wet tossers these days, to be frank.

    That's not my take. They go plenty hard enough, but their focus is not mine. I'd be quite happy for them to cover that focus full time and for their social/economic policy to remain in second place if a party with the opposite ordering of top priorities were around to complement them. They'd work well together, I think, having basically a very similar set of policies, but with a different ordering of the number 1 position. I like their very detailed and well worked out positions with a scientific focus. But I think that focus is necessarily limited, that I still have a lot of opinions on matters outside of science, and at the moment those are important to me. In the long run, environmentalism is vital. In the short term, social equality is a bigger concern for me.

    I like how organized and professional the Greens are. That has a lot of appeal. But we have an opportunity created by the perfect storm that created the bizarre personality with a ton of money, an electorate representative with real credibility, and a time of massive and increasing youth disengagement to create a strong extension to our national left wing. I want to help, if it isn't futile.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10641 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Starrow,

    I know there are no such words as "bitter" or "cynical" or "envious" or phrases such as "chip-on -the-shoulder" on Planet Key.

    Since Sep 2014 • 77 posts Report Reply

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