Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: A (non-)submission on the new Arms Amendment legislation

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  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Paul Loch,

    Very democratic

    You fail to understand what democracy means.

    Your 250000, even IF they all opposed this law, which they clearly don't based on press releases by major hunting organisations, they would not outvote the rest of NZ.

    That, for good or ill, is what democracy is about - but apparently you don't want to defend democracy.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4449 posts Report Reply

  • Pete, in reply to steven crawford,

    As far back as I can remember there has always been an amnesty on firearms in this country, take any "gun" into your local copshop and they will happily destroy it for you
    I've done it myself with a crappy little cheap 22 that I got at an auction for the suppressor and didn't need the rest of it clogging up valuable safe room - only worth about $25 so out she went

    Leaving aside the undue haste with which this process has been conducted, those of us who know a little bit about guns (and rifles too) observe that the way the committee have thrown their rope around each category has not been very smart and has lead to
    a- several firearms that are not being included that could fall into the "scary black gun" category - after all, we know what y'all are really after is a largely aesthetic decision as you can rapid fire anything if you practice enough
    b- several firearms that have been included that fall into the "Grandpappys old popgun" category ie tube mag 22s

    This is leading to lot of confusion which is not helpful

    Also, the police wish to administer some sort or registration system - there was one before and there is one now - I am on it
    All Licensees with endorsements for pistols (B) and formerly semiauto MSSAs (E) and collectors (C) are on it
    I have these endorsements and get inspected every few months

    My point is this - Police so very regularly get things wrong on this register that it has become a standing joke so going on what they are doing now I wouldn't trust the police to run a bigger register in the future (remember INCIS?)
    They gave me 2 licenses and I have met people with 5 - other people get someone else's photo on their license, you get the idea
    If I had to surrender one license for some crime I could do it and then take the other one and buy as many firearms as my credit card would allow

    This is not a well-run system, and please note that before the Chch massacre the police wanted to shift inspections off to a glorified call centre in Paraparaumu, further weakening the system

    The only reason John and Jane Citizen should give a shit is it is YOUR tax dollars going to waste and unless they offer a handsome sum for the confiscation planned then you will not get ARs off the streets

    This confiscation is going to be expensive if it is to work and there are a LOT of firearms out there - I've only got about 20 and I know people with hundreds

    Alternatively they will do it in typical NZ fashion as Peter Jackson put it - "a dollar short and a day late" and it will fail to achieve the objective

    Not the sort of thing I would rush but hey, what do I know?

    Since Apr 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Pete,

    Police so very regularly get things wrong on this register that it has become a standing joke so going on what they are doing now I wouldn’t trust the police

    What happened in CHCH has shaken a lot of people out of their complacency including, I'm sure, the police. They dont want to regarded as a standing joke in this matter anymore.

    I know people with hundreds

    What of guns? and they are unknown to the police? Are you sure?

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1874 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Pete,

    the undue haste with which this process has been conducted

    We can all keep perfectly calm

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • Pete, in reply to andin,

    Yes, I know people who have more than 100 firearms each, at least 4 personally

    Predominant group skews older white male and tend to have a lot of hair growing out of their ears and have never had a girlfriend - sounds like some sort of tramping club but seriously they are out there and have always been out there peaceably going about their business- there are a LOT more firearms in this country I reckon than most people think - there's still the odd old WW2 Luger pistol unregistered floating about

    The thing about FAL owners that looks dodgy on the surface is that we/they tend towards being secretive because we are worried about being a target for gangs and burglaries - another reason not to trust ol plod with a database

    Look there are departments that can do it okish - Internal Affairs with passports run a pretty tight ship IMO

    I do not wish to be a shopping list item for some fried up P-head and I do not trust plod to keep my info secure

    Please note also that those of us who are lawful police the others somewhat-
    I have seized an illegal rifle off a friend and told him to get a license before he can have it back - he hasn't and I've got rid of it now but this is not an unusual incident - I have been asked to referee for someone else and said that they should not have a license
    As a community we keep an eye on each other

    Go back to the original sin (other than Mr wankface pulling the trigger) - who vetted him, who witnessed for him?
    Word I hear is that he didn't take the test in his home town, never got a home safe inspection and his referees gave almost identical statements cos he got them off a chat room
    No friends should be a great big warning sign

    I would really like to know if this is true but I am not optimistic that the truth will out in this case

    Since Apr 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • Pete, in reply to Sacha,

    There may be no sheep on our farms but there will certainly be a lot of bunnies down South soon

    Since Apr 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Pete,

    we are worried about being a target for gangs and burglaries – another reason not to trust ol plod with a database

    That seems like a fair reservation.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Pete,

    As a community we keep an eye on each other

    Its how you define your community that can make or break a country.
    I get your point about the police,they can too often turn into a quasi army enforcing clearly dangerous and stupid laws on the larger population at the behest of unscrupulous politicians. (And Im still not much of a fan of Greg O’Connor after all the bull he spouted as police spokesman.) The war on drugs, and the treatment of anti apartheid demonstrators in this country has clearly shown that. And treatment of Maori continues to shown they are not coming to grips very well with racism within their ranks. what can I or anyone say but hope as time goes on improvement comes.

    You live in New Zealand while fellow gun enthusiasts may be your immediate community, the population of New Zealand is yours and all of our larger community. It dangerous to split yourself off from that, not just to others also to yourself.

    Sure the CHCH shooter was an aberration, allowed to get to the situation where he could carry out his acts, in part of because of an unspoken racial bias in the police who issued his licence and they have to own up to that, something they haven t done as yet.
    But we all have to start caring a bit more about our wider community and not split up into sects. This is probably the only time I will use a sporting metaphor. Its not the individuals teams, its the game that is important. Ughh I have to go and wash my brain now. But thats what is important here. Sorry I hope I didnt get too preachy on you.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1874 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    First poll on new gun laws: 80% in favour (61% + 19% more who say "should go further").

    You'd have trouble getting 80% of voters to agree that the moon landings really happened. So that's pretty conclusive.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1314 posts Report Reply

  • Pete, in reply to simon g,

    Since Apr 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Pete,

    Yes, weird gun collectors will go to the extreme of breaking into police stations to satisfy their cravings to own lethal weapons. Is it like a drug addiction or something?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    I think the intended point was: As predicted, police stations are not secure enough (and/or police procedures not stringent enough) to cope with the increased pressure (in this case, from weird gun collectors gone rogue).
    Though. again, such theft is actual criminal activity, prosecutable under already-existing laws.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1875 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to Pete,

    a lot of bunnies down South soon

    Wasn't use for professional pest control an explicit exception?

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1875 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to linger,

    amateur pest control on the other hand ..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to Sacha,

    ...and most pests are such amateurs, after all...

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1875 posts Report Reply

  • Pete, in reply to linger,

    So now with extra regulation professional pest control will be more expensive to run and the cost will be passed on to the customers/landowners

    Prioritising costs will lead to bunny control being underfunded hence more ecological damage

    I fully accept that the majority has spoken regarding semis - I am sounding like Cassandra because there is a lot of taxpayers money about to go up in smoke because of hastily made and poorly thought out laws

    Since Apr 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • Pete, in reply to steven crawford,

    Steven - what?

    That guy wasn't a collector, he was a crim
    What do you have against people who are firearms owners?
    Why do we always get this shit?
    I have less than zero interest in shooting anyone and yes I am aware that I have the tools but I would point out that you could be a rent boy if you wanted and yet presumably you aren't
    You could bend the car towards the school crossing and take out lots of kids and yet you don't, do you Steven?
    Thanks for the inclusiveness pal

    Since Apr 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Pete,

    Why do we always get this shit?

    Because you come to blog communities like this and argue for the right to bare arms, only weeks after a man went on a rampage with firearms. And then you express some sort of excitement about police incompetence or I don’t know what, Some mentally unstable person breaking into a police station and steeling a bunch of guns?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Pete,

    So now with extra regulation professional pest control will be more expensive to run and the cost will be passed on to the customers/landowners

    And anti 1080 extremists will be reduced to intimidating department of conservation staff while only holding wimpy looking firearms with wooden handles.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4163 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Pete,

    pest control will be more expensive to run and the cost will be passed on to the customers/landowners

    Have you been going round the country doing everyones costings again, when you knew the legislation was going to be passed and you wanted the facts to back up your claims? UMM that would be a NO wouldnt it! Cant let the facts get in the way of a good scaremongering!

    Prioritising costs will lead to bunny control being underfunded hence more ecological damage

    Those fucking Victorians introducing those bunnies back in the day. If only they had given a thought to the ecological damage their harmless pursuit of food and sport would bring. Not great forward planners those tweedy chaps EH WOT!

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1874 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Prioritising costs will lead to bunny control being underfunded hence more ecological damage

    Farmers don’t kill bunnies for ecological reasons, they do it for commercial reasons, and paying someone to do it properly is a sound commercial expenditure in a real business. I’m still not really seeing the reason why military style assault rifles should be owned by anything other than a very small number of people with a very genuine business reason.

    I’m not getting any kind of feel from you that this is really about pest control. It’s about the right to have those weapons because you like them. I’m sorry, that’s just too bad now.

    ETA: The reason I don't feel like it's about pest control with you is that you only give the laziest of throwaways on that cost, and then all your arguments focus around the lethality of all sorts of other things that have not been banned, which is an entirely different argument. You keep coming back to that, so it's pretty clear that's really your whole actual reason for outrage. You wanted those guns and you don't intend to slaughter anyone, so therefore people owning cars who also don't intend to slaughter anyone is unfair somehow. It's not a good faith engagement, so don't expect inclusiveness.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10629 posts Report Reply

  • Pete,

    Yep this is where NZ cleaves into two nations all right

    Y'all know this place is an echo chamber, right?

    Since Apr 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Pete,

    unlike a rural gun club, naturally

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19667 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Pete,

    Y’all know this place is an echo chamber, right?

    We can all rub along together... right?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7876 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Pete,

    Yep this is where NZ cleaves into two nations all right

    I would not consider the tiny number of people determined to own military style assault rifles a nation.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10629 posts Report Reply

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