Speaker by Various Artists

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Speaker: On the upland road

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  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Pharmachick,

    His name is Hager
    - please direct your vitriol at the right target, if you wish your views to be found easily in the public record...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7889 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Idiot Savant,

    Which can only be taken as a threat.

    This isn’t to deny the clear ethical problems displayed by Slater and DPF. But I’m not sure that a government crackdown on what has become a vital democratic forum is tha answer here.

    What the Law Commission proposed was voluntary for bloggers. I'd be okay with it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22754 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Pharmachick,

    So many people I know on all sides of the spectrum have gone beyond angry and they’re just tired of it all now.

    I’m tired of it, too. I’d rather be considering other things, but I don’t think that makes it acceptable as a consequence. It’s more like an unpleasant thing which remains critically important for NZ’s future and still requires dealing with.

    What do you propose we do? Ignore it because people are tired of it? Leave it up to politicians to decide how to improve their own conduct?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Pharmachick,

    I think there’s a lot of stinky stuff on all sides

    Feel free to provide examples to back up your reckons.

    There is some glorious hair splitting in “leaking” not being “theft”.

    The legal position on what counts as a defence was outlined clearly hereabouts by law professor Nicole Moreham.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to Pharmachick,

    Recycling of long since addressed and discounted arguments adds nothing to the debate. Seriously, you come across as a stooge.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to Dismal Soyanz,

    Seriously, you come across as a stooge.

    BigPharmaChick - Carrick Graham in a chicken suit?

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2091 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Dismal Soyanz,

    long since addressed and discounted arguments

    Not everybody will be on the same page.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19686 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Seriously, you come across as a stooge.

    BigPharmaChick – Carrick Graham in a chicken suit?

    No. Pharmachick has an occasional commenting history and I'm pretty sure she's commenting in good faith. Let's disagree with each other rather than make accusations.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22754 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    On one side, you have a government that helps its mates to avoid justice for stealing money from old people.

    On the other, you have investigative journalism.

    If you can't see the difference.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Let’s disagree with each other rather than make accusations.

    Sorry Pharmachick. Not an accusation, just a stupid attempt at humour.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2091 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to Sacha,

    I guess. Although when the writing on the page is 48 pt font and double spaced, you wonder whether they can read at all.

    Or maybe just not bothering to read.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Leave it to the professionals...

    ...just a stupid attempt at humour.

    You wanna be more Prime Ministerial, mate,
    <nudge> he gets all the (hollow) laughs!

    ;- )

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7889 posts Report Reply

  • Pharmachick,

    Hi to all,

    rather than a huge number of posts I'll send a general one.

    Firstly, I did not make an argument that this is about how much Mr Hager makes (oops, I'm also very sorry about the perpetuated spelling mistake of his last name). My argument was that a section of the Crimes Act specifically states that penalties change at 30K proceeds - so yes, I hope he has pod legal advice. I actually wish him every good luck in making money as an author, because its hard to do - particularly in the NZ marketplace. I certainly have no $ envy for that. I am, however; sincerely unsure that Mr Hager has the moral high ground in receiving hacked/stolen e-mails etc. I just don't like the idea of criminal acts precipitating debate (yes, I now call me naive, and yes… I'm also aware of Watergate etc, I just don't want to see my country going down that road - although it maybe too late).

    Secondly, I believe that some of this is *very* relevant. Such as the attempt to discredit the SFO etc. Wow, just wow and probably unbecoming. But IMHO details of who talks to whom over private e-mail, including the inevitable bragging about "take downs" or "gunning for" needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It sounds like a political equivalent of Rugby Club talk after a few ;-)

    Yes, again - you have pointed out that I was incorrect … its not every three years. But I *do* wonder why Mr. Hager does this consistently just before an election (when he does it). Argument pro: precise timing, most relevant, protects the public. Argument con: publicity seeking and [maybe] a bit self-aggrandising as "defender of the public" [self appointed]. Truly I dunno, but also truthfully, I lean to the latter (with a healthy dose of the former).

    Also, I don't think I'd look great in one of those giant chicken suits - being only 5' tall - although I'm sure you'd get a good laugh Rob =D

    Since Apr 2009 • 35 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Pharmachick,

    I just don’t like the idea of criminal acts precipitating debate (yes, I now call me naive, and yes… I’m also aware of Watergate etc, I just don’t want to see my country going down that road – although it maybe too late).

    As an aside, how did you feel about Kim Dot Com having his data illegally obtained by one of our government agency’s, so that another Sovereign nation can build a criminal case to take him away and lock him in jail.? not just a book.

    But whoops, that law was retrospectively changed, so disregard that last question. But do be concerned about your privacy because five eyes, and the head of the SIS has no clue about what goes on in his office. But that’s all about to change because he’s been of the booze for three weeks now.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4316 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to Pharmachick,

    But IMHO details of who talks to whom over private e-mail, including the inevitable bragging about “take downs” or “gunning for” needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It sounds like a political equivalent of Rugby Club talk after a few ;-)

    If it was only private emails between private (i.e. non-government) individuals then, yes. But it wasn't. In the context of the smears on Slater's blog and the positions of the participants such as Ede and Collins, this is no longer about expressing an opinion privately.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • Pharmachick, in reply to steven crawford,

    I was, and am, outraged.

    I thought that Kim Dotcom deserved far better than having his privacy egregiously invaded by NZ police acting as stooges for the FBI. Who BTW, are supposedly an INTERNAL agency in the US (the external one is the CIA, and don't get me started - I lived in the US for ~13 years until relatively recently). And don't get me started about an Armed Offenders Squad call out (for all intents and purposes) in a house with the many young children and women in it. Utterly disgraceful.

    All this being said, I also have some grave concerns about Mr. Dotcom's role in our electoral process this election.

    Since Apr 2009 • 35 posts Report Reply

  • simon g, in reply to Pharmachick,

    Personally I'd be pleased if Dotcom cancelled his 'Big reveal' on Sept 15, and kept quiet until the election. A backlash against him is probably Key's last best hope.

    I fear his ego is bigger than his strategic smarts.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to Pharmachick,

    I am, however; sincerely unsure that Mr Hager has the moral high ground in receiving hacked/stolen e-mails etc. I just don’t like the idea of criminal acts precipitating debate

    I feel the public good argument is clear enough. But it tends not to work on people who say 'I won't listen to this, because it comes from hacked emails' - and thus can't make an informed judgement.
    I haven't heard it seriously contended that not reporting the emails would have been the best course of action. Is that the argument you're making? Ironically, it would mean no one knowing about a range of other hacking and stealing (and possibly illegally leaking) information for narrow political purposes. Eyes wide shut.
    So while you're condemning Hager, you might spare a few words on how you regard the methods and motives of Cameron Slater, Jason Ede, and John Key. Just for the record.
    I also disagree about Hager's motives and the timing of this book. He's worked as an investigative journalist for decades, and written quite a few books. More often than not, they get more-or-less ignored. I guess if you're inclined to think badly of people's motives, you will. It's character-judgement, and some of it comes from the gut. But it should involve looking at evidence too.
    Completely agree on the 'pub-talk' nature of much of the bragging. I felt this even more strongly with the (leaked) transcripts of the 'Urewera 17'. People talk all sorts of sh*t in private.
    I don't think we can take much Slater wrote at face value. That's where Hager's judgement comes in. He's pretty careful to look for corroboration, and not to make claims that exceed the evidence he has. (Also- at leaving out details that invade personal privacy to make a political point. Which alone makes his work diametrically opposed to that of Slater et al. Nasty personal attacks were a speciality.)
    Interested in your response, and not laughing at all. Feeling pretty bleak.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2091 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Pharmachick,

    All this being said, I also have some grave concerns about Mr. Dotcom’s role in our electoral process this election.

    What are you concerned about particularly? this is not the first time a small political movement has been exclusively funded by a millionaire with a checkered history and dubious motives. Its just unusual that it’s not a far right wing political movement. I don't believe he will have any real influence after the election.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4316 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to steven crawford,

    I don’t believe he will have any real influence after the election.

    That's been my own impression, too, at least as far as direct influence goes. I guess you could note that he's dropped a bundle of money on a group which mightn't have otherwise had it. I'll be interested to see if his involvement has had any measurable effect on younger voter turnout.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1139 posts Report Reply

  • FletcherB, in reply to simon g,

    I fear his ego is bigger than his strategic smarts.

    I fear this too, and I think saving your big reveal until only five days before the election is a sign you dont have those strategic smarts....

    If you think you have election outcome changing info to share with the public, you need to know that it takes longer than five days for the public to shift... unless it's truely monumentally bad....

    100% Proof that John Key has been lying about knowing about KDC would not be big enough to sway that many voters. that quickly. It seems large chunks of the public already beleive he's a liar and are still planning to vote for him.

    Video of him shooting babies might be enough? I doubt thats available? :)

    West Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 887 posts Report Reply

  • Trevor Nicholls, in reply to steven crawford,

    this is not the first time a small political movement has been exclusively funded by a millionaire with a checkered history and dubious motives

    My recollection is that the present government were so concerned about increased sponsorship of this kind that THEY CHANGED THE LAW to facilitate it. They've got absolutely no right to complain.

    Wellington, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to FletcherB,

    Not to mention that voting started today.
    Anyone who wants to can cast an advance vote. Locations and opening hours of advance polling stations are available on the elections.org website electorate map; zoom in to your electorate and check the box to show the relevant icons.
    (Since I’m going back to Japan next week, I have already cast mine.)

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1889 posts Report Reply

  • Dismal Soyanz, in reply to izogi,

    I guess you could note that he’s dropped a bundle of money on a group which mightn’t have otherwise had it.

    Although the bundle has not dropped close enough to Georgina Beyer. Not much chance of Dotcom keeping her reined in methinks.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2010 • 310 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Savidge,

    Attachment

    Spotted doing the rounds - anyone know if it can be verified? If so it would seem he can count his dirty money ok but his spelling could use some help aktshully.

    Somewhere near Wellington… • Since Nov 2006 • 324 posts Report Reply

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