Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible Demure Lady Stroll
457 Responses
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nzlemming, in reply to
Where are the anti binge drinking ads that show the man waking up in jail having raped? Where are the anti bullying adds that show someone standing by watching while their mates rape someone?
Actually, those are fucking good ideas. So I doubt they'll ever get made, for the other reasons in your comment, which are very perceptive IMHO.
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Craig, you know what I am doing now involves arms, and hearts, and healing energy. All for you, my friend. All for you.
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Megan Wegan, in reply to
Where are the anti binge drinking ads that show the man waking up in jail having raped? Where are the anti bullying adds that show someone standing by watching while their mates rape someone?
Which was my argument all along with the infamous Lisa ad. (Sorry, yes, I brought it up.) Why focus on the victim, not the perpetrator? Why could the ad not have been a guy who drank too much and raped his partner? Where, seriously, are the don't rape ads?
When I was in Samoa a couple of months ago, the Victim Support group there had been running a campaign with posters that just said "Rape is wrong" (or something close to that, I forget the actually wording). At the time, I was sad that that needed to be said. Now, it strikes me that maybe it was incredibly effective.
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3410,
Sharing of experience, rather than mere opinion, is often a productive way through a sensitive debate. It's an important part of the culture here.
Perhaps, but after dipping my toe in the water, I don't feel like sharing.
But I'm not looking to hijack, so would prefer to leave it there.
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Bart? I heart your comment completely. Because yeah, I would like to see PSAs at least tackling the bystander problem, that being a little easier. Because you don't want to be the one saying to a friend the next day, "Oh, shit, yeah, he does that. Sorry."
Also... shit, see there I was going to make a generalisation, and in order to avoid that, I have to speak from my own experience. Sorry. Drag up a chair. Oh, you're all already sitting down.
The incident I mentioned in the column happened near the end of 7th form, and involved a guy I actually fancied, and people knew I fancied. They'd popped off for a joint, and while they were away they hatched a plan. They ran in and scooped me up off the lawn and carried me inside, and I was laughing. The way you would be, if your friends did that.
When I came back out, I was not laughing. I was very quiet. While I was waiting for the ride home that never turned up (because my girlfriend had co-opted him), one of the guys involved came up and apologised to me. We'd known each other since childhood. We went to Sunday School together.
And the way I got through the rest of the year, and my exams, was by telling myself that it wasn't that bad. It could have been worse. It wasn't rape-rape. Because there were five of them, and all they had to say was "She was totally up for it", and nobody would believe me. And anyway, I shouldn't really have been there.
It's taken me a long time to realise that when I used to mull ideas like "Well, maybe there should be degrees of rape, like the US system for murder", what I'm saying is, "Because that can't have happened to me. That was something else."
So it's not just that we don't want to think about things we have seen or things we have done as being rape or sexual assault. It also happens that people don't want to think about things that happened to them in that way.
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Che Tibby, in reply to
Where are the anti bullying adds that show someone standing by watching while their mates rape someone?
agreed. being an enabler is as offensive as being a perpetrator.
@craig. as per our other conversation.
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Man...this is frustrating. I want so badly to share my experience of the time a 14 year old girl told me she had been raped. But even with every anonymity I've worked in there, it still feels like a betrayal of her trust to tell anyone. Another long comment discarded. But writing it made me feel better even if the bits are now scattered to entropy. If there was a message, it is that telling someone you trust about it does have a healing power. Unfortunately, I can't trust the internet, so I guess this one goes into the long basket of "anecdotes that will have to hide in my novel".
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
It also happens that people don’t want to think about things that happened to them in that way.
Because part of the mechanism for coping is to distance yourself somehow. It may play merry havoc with you later in life but it's a way of managing at the time. And sometimes people eventually believe the lies they tell themselves.
But yes it was that bad, yes it was that wrong and yes it really did do that much harm .. and the tears are real.
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Che Tibby, in reply to
Because part of the mechanism for coping is to distance yourself somehow. It may play merry havoc with you later in life but it’s a way of managing at the time.
yup. maybe 10 years ago a mate told me he was surprised i’d never told him my mum was in the slammer when i was a kid.
i’d never mentioned it because i hadn’t remembered until he told me.
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In my early twenties I found myself at a biker rally (cold kiwi?) with a group of people I didn’t know. I had far too much to drink, wandered off on my own and eventually woke up in the morning in my own tent, alone. Later that day I was chatting to one of the guys in the group I was with and said I felt I’d put myself at risk the night before. “Oh, we knew where you were” he said. These hairy westie bikers had kept an unobtrusive eye on a drunk stranger, prevented the one person I did know from going into my tent to claim some “property rights” and apparently as a point of honour never get with drunk girls. There is hope.
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Moz,
One of the scary things with looking back and wondering if you did the wrong thing is how utterly terrifying it is... for women. Most appear to have never thought about obtaining consent, let alone about what consent might look like if they had it. The "erection = consent" myth has a powerful hold, as well as the "women can't rape, so whatever we do is fine" myth. Having to actually ask whether you had consent or just assumed it is not an easy thing to do.
I do think there's an argument that if alleged victims don't want to describe something as rape they shouldn't be forced to. But I don't know enough about psychopathology to have an informed opinion as to whether it's actually a good idea.
There are also interesting problems around drinking to consent, because doing it sober is too scary. I've had a couple of strange moments when my "no sex with drugged people" rule came into the open only after someone had drugged themselves as a prelude to propositioning me. Partly I have ethical issues with it, but mostly it's just less fun when one of you is out of it.
Moz, bringing you uttlerly disconnected posts since 1996.
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One of the scary things with looking back and wondering if you did the wrong thing is how utterly terrifying it is… for women. Most appear to have never thought about obtaining consent, let alone about what consent might look like if they had it.
Hmmm.... for me, the scary part lies in looking back and thinking about a particular event and realising that my participation was at least somewhat coerced, and my clear verbal, 'No, I don't want to do this', was disregarded. It was not a good relationship, one where I was very much overawed and unable to cope with my somewhat older, and very manipulative, boyfriend.
Looking back, I can think of a couple of incidents where I think my partner was obliging me, but never one where he was drunk or under the influence of drugs, and never one where I persisted when he said 'No', or even, 'I don't really feel like this.'
Also looking back, the first time I had sex was with a man who knew I wasn't all that sure about it (I blame the nuns), and he made a huge amount of space for me to make up my own mind about what to do.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
I blame the nuns
Always a good starting point
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nzlemming, in reply to
I blame the nuns
Always a good starting point
Shit yes. I'd blame the nuns for global fucking warming if I could figure an angle. They've screwed up so many lives around me and mine that it's hardly a stretch to think they might have fucked over the planet as well.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
They've screwed up so many lives around me and mine that it's hardly a stretch to think they might have fucked over the planet as well.
But they gave us George Carlin. I'd say we're about even.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
I'd blame the nuns for global fucking warming if I could figure an angle
They probably destroy the ozone layer with all their flying around.
Interesting how after being all serious and emotional I get just plain silly.
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Moz,
Deborah, your position that by default men have consented to sex and must explicitly withdraw consent is problematic to me. Failure to say no does not mean yes.
One problem with that, of course, is that it's possible to have sex where neither party consents.
I think we as a society would do better if there was less emphasis on "being a man means always wanting sex, anywhere, with anyone". What does consent mean when the person consenting is told that his erection means he consented (it's not rape if you got wet), and that if he didn't consent he's not a real man (good women don't get raped).
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Deborah, in reply to
I was talking about the specific sexual relationships that I have had, Moz, all three of which I recall very clearly, one of which is on-going. So there's a whole context behind what I said w.r.t. the couple of situations where I felt that my partner may have been obliging me. As in, I was keen but he wasn't so much, but was happy enough to carry on. And when he said he wasn't, I stopped. I wasn't making any generalisations about men, and really, I'm pretty upset by what you're implying about me.
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Moz,
Deborah, I don't think I'm implying anything about you other than perhaps that you're happy with your behaviour. You never mentioned that you'd stopped, only that situations had arisen when you doubted consent but chose not to explicitly ask. The implication of your post is distasteful, yet you're criticising me for making it explicit?
To me this is simple "same rules, same rights, same responsibilities" stuff. If he has an obligation to question whether he has got consent and to explicitly ask if he doubts, so do you. If you want a double standard, justify it.
But yes, I'm getting upset by this so I will disappear.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I do think there’s an argument that if alleged victims don’t want to describe something as rape they shouldn’t be forced to. But I don’t know enough about psychopathology to have an informed opinion as to whether it’s actually a good idea.
It's probably a better idea than telling them they've been raped when they don't believe they have.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Deborah, I don’t think I’m implying anything about you other than perhaps that you’re happy with your behaviour. You never mentioned that you’d stopped, only that situations had arisen when you doubted consent but chose not to explicitly ask. The implication of your post is distasteful, yet you’re criticising me for making it explicit?
I think you need to back off, or be more specific about your own experience.
Deborah was simply being honest about personal feelings and reflections that all of us experience. Without wishing to state the obvious, human sexual relations is a complexed, nuanced and highly individualised sphere. No one gets it exactly right. There are grey areas all over it: you might enjoy being told you look hot by one person and find it creepy coming from another.
I do think one of the dangers of this sort of discussion is defining-down rape. Sometimes "I wasn't really that into that", or "maybe he wasn't that into that", or "I wish I hadn't done that" just are what they are.
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And hot off the press... police have dropped all charges against Darren Hughes, for lack of evidence. Jonathan Marshall has a LOT of explaining to do, if he doesn't want a libel suit to knuckle-sandwich him.
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Deborah, in reply to
@Moz:
You never mentioned that you’d stopped, only that situations had arisen when you doubted consent but chose not to explicitly ask.
That is reading an unbelievable amount into what I wrote, and it's reading something very nasty into what I wrote. I talked about 'looking back' and interrogating my own past behaviour and I explicitly said this:
and never one where I persisted when he said ‘No’, or even, ‘I don’t really feel like this.’
It's right up there in black and white. Go take a look.
This is an incredibly difficult topic to talk about, and up until this point, people have been very careful about what they have said about other people. I feel that you have said something quite horrible about me.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
From
where I think my partner was obliging me
to
If you want a double standard, justify it
Is an extremely unfair leap.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
There’s a very big difference, as Russell has just demonstrated, between owning your own experience and weighing its importance to you, and negating the experiences of others.
I possibly could have been clearer about that. What stays with me is how passive I was about the whole thing. You'd think I'd have shouted, or jumped out of the chair -- dude touched my cock! -- but I didn't. And I thought that was instructive.
OTOH, when some guy felt my bum as I was going in to the bar at Family one time ... that was sort of flattering.
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