Up Front: Something Chronic
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Because that is what Lucy pointed out, no study has shown that high doses of Vitamin C, delivered orally do anything for any disease including cancer
The method of delivery was not mentioned in Lucy's or my statements, but in the field of oncological research "high dose vitamin C" means "vitamin C administered by IV to achieve the plasma concentration necessary to be considered high dose".
even after it was conclusively disproved (that massive amounts of vitamin C were good for anything in particular
The part of Lucy's quote that is incorrect is "it was conclusively disproved that massive amounts of vitamin C were good for "anything" in particular".
I would agree it had not been conclusively proved that high doses of vitamin C are good for anything in particular, but she is just plain wrong when she writes "it was conclusively disproved". There is a world of difference between the two statements, and both you and Lucy should understand how profoundly different they are.
A lot of work in this field is being done in Canada.
Intravenously Administered Vitamin C as Cancer Therapy
A key distinction between conventional, science-based medicine and alternative therapy is the presence or absence of scientific plausibility. In conventional medicine, the efficacy of treatment is proven by properly conducted clinical trials. Many treatments are still used if there is moderately good, albeit inconclusive evidence of efficacy ("clinical plausibility"), especially when treatment rationale agrees with biologic facts (conferring "biological plausibility"). Vitamin C is an alternative cancer therapy because the results obtained in original studies that suggested clinical benefit were not confirmed by controlled clinical trials, and the notion that high-dose vitamin C was selectively toxic to cancer cells was biologically implausible.
New information is available pertaining to biological plausibility. Although similar doses of vitamin C were used in the Cameron–Pauling and Mayo Clinic studies, the Cameron–Pauling studies combined intravenous and oral administration whereas the Mayo Clinic studies used only oral administration. Recent pharmacokinetics modeling indicates that with oral administration, even very large and frequent doses of vitamin C will increase plasma concentrations only modestly, from 70 µmol/L to a maximum of 220 µmol/L, whereas intravenous administration raises plasma concentrations as high as 14 000 µmol/L. Concentrations of 1000–5000 µmol/L are selectively cytotoxic to tumour cells in vitro,16–20and emerging evidence indicates that ascorbic acid at concentrations achieved only by the intravenous route may function as a pro-drug for hydrogen peroxide delivery to tissues. The in vitro biologic evidence and clinical pharmacokinetics data confer biological plausibility to the notion that vitamin C could affect cancer biology and may explain in part the negative results of the Mayo Clinic trials. Thus, sufficient evidence has accumulated, not to use vitamin C as cancer treatment, but to further explore the therapeutic concept.
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Sue, your jewellery is beautiful - it makes me smile as well. In general (this goes for Emma, too) I'm just wildly impressed that the creative spirit is so willing when the flesh is weak. Brava.
I agree!
And it isn't just the creative spirit that is valuable to me either Sue - and everyone - it's the fellowship of discussion! If that's not too maudlin a sentiment for y'all.
Agree, disagree, learn, revise, recant - I do it all, but you would all be suprised how much I adore you all for it. This is a forum is a world apart from the stultifying small talk James K. Baxter describes as "like contraception for conversation" and makes him compare people to animated trees. Long live debate and the sharing of information, and thanks for not killing me when I'm annoying.
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Yes! Yes! What Ngaire said about pants!! Sounds like we had quite similar experiences in general.
I would have incredibly vivid dreams and be unable to tell whether they were real or not. Not the end of the world when I dreamt I'd had a conversation with someone about something and got confused when they had no recollection. Bit trickier when I dreamt my partner was cheating on me, or that there was someone in the house about to attack me.
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Oh, it's so nice to meet someone who understands about the pants! :)
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Sue,
oops i posted the wrong thing that's a lovely link to tour torrents if anyone watches the tour de france ;)
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yeah right, it was something about pants wasn't it? you can tell us
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lot of work in this field is being done in Canada.
Intravenously Administered Vitamin C as Cancer Therapy
Intravenously administered vitamin C as cancer therapy: three cases
n= 3!!
not science
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I would agree it had not been conclusively proved that high doses of vitamin C are good for anything in particular, but Lucy is just plain wrong when she writes "it was conclusively disproved". There is a world of difference between the two statements, and both you and Lucy should understand how profoundly different they are.
But again you failed to address my point: both you and Lucy need to understand and aknowlege the profound difference between these two statements above.
not science
What's the relevance of "not science" in this context? These are case studies published in a medical journal. There is similar work being done at Otago.
I wholeheartedly agree there is a world of difference between science and medicine.
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If "science" only means things that lots of studies have been done about, then where do new discoveries fit in?
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What's the relevance of "not science"
You presented a large quote from a medical journal paper that studied an observation of 3 cases. You presented it in such a way as to imply it proved something. That is not the case. It is simply an observation of 3 cases. Medical journals are quite appropriately full of such case studies.
They are not science in the sense that they do not test hypotheses and do not come to scientific conclusions and they are not intended to be used as proof of anything by the authors.
It is a valuable as concluding that since 3 people in this thread watch OF and have CFS then the two are linked.
Equally Linus Pauling wandering around the world describing some cute chemistry that he claimed showed vitamin C was of tremendous health benefit was not science.
However the large scale double blind clinical trials did show scientifically and with strong statistical certainty that vitamin C does sweet FA for any medical condition are science in the generally accepted use of the word.
Now large scale trials sometimes miss things because of averaging effects but they are our best scientific proof and so I will trust them. You of course are free to ignore them.
Your playing with semantics over what Lucy said is really not helpful. Those studies showed that all the claims made by Pauling about Vitamin C were not provable using any of the methods that Pauling himself used to establish his good name.
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You presented a large quote from a medical journal paper that studied an observation of 3 cases. You presented it in such a way as to imply it proved something. That is not the case.
Doesn't Dyan's paragraphs directly above indicate that she doesn't think that it proves anything, just that it's interesting?
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Sue,
Can we please close the vitamin C discussion as relates to CFS
it's on my list of crackpot treatments I've tried and regretted.
and why would anyone really want to take high doses of something that give you diarrhea, becuase that's how they work out the peak of your dosages, but when you get the runs.Now here's my perspective of the medical debate
From my online CFS experience I moved away from all the CFS online discussion forums becuase the debates about the pros and cons of studies and treatments drove me nuts. Also with brain fog, you don't care about the minutiae of things, becuase it's so exhausting just reading the summary.Me i like it when a friend sends me a link, most of my friends say
"i suspect you know this already, and let me know if you want more info or help looking into it"
this leaves me up to decide what i think about it or take action and if i want to take up their offer of help.
but back to important things
PANTS!
i am sensing unknown symptom PANTS, or the checking of pants. but then i always have to check and see if i am wearing my glasses -
but then i always have to check and see if i am wearing my glasses
Key brain-fog moments for me: working out that the reason my vision was fogging up was because I was still wearing my glasses, in the shower.
Also, yes, what Sue said.
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Doesn't Dyan's paragraphs directly above indicate that she doesn't think that it proves anything, just that it's interesting?
As do, to my reading, the last couple of sentences of the text she quoted. But yes, I think that's enough of this now.
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Pants are so pants. They're the number one cause of me not being able to get out of bed. Well, as an association with the D, of course, the sense of impending doom because I have no idea where they are and cannot face looking for them.
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Glad we got past the derailing and back to pants. I have a pretty good record with pants, it's the belts that let me down. It's that change over thing, where you only have one belt, but many pants.
Lucky we're not in Australia.
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I have a pretty good record with pants, it's the belts that let me down. It's that change over thing, where you only have one belt, but many pants.
Damian may scoff at the idea of wearing a skirt over pants, but when my pants puddled around my ankles in my favourite bar one night, at least no one knew that I was wearing rocket ship thunderpants...
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Sue,
Jo is right
Pants are so pants.
in fact i often use pants as my swear word of choice
So what sort of things do people do to plan ahead for fun things -I find needing to plan ahead with the worst case in mind is sometimes a bit depressing
today my shiny new collapsible walking cane arrived! I'm going on holiday and i do want to see more things than a hotel room, so a cane is essential. But becuase it's a shiny blue one i feel more like a sporty hiking person than a tired person. which made the cane thing less depressing
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So what sort of things do people do to plan ahead for fun things
Along with the pants thing, my counsellor told me to buy more pairs of socks so that I wouldn't be derailed in the mornings by not being able to find clean socks. It's sort of ridiculous, but there have been stages in my life where not being able to find socks would totally have sent me back to bed for the rest of the day. I like the sound of your cane!
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today my shiny new collapsible walking cane arrived! I'm going on holiday and i do want to see more things than a hotel room, so a cane is essential.
Have a fantastic trip, Sue, I hope you have heaps of energy, and barely have to use your cane at all, except for poking people out of your way :-)
I've found holidays are great mental-health savers, even if they're fairly low key. On my last trip away I spent a couple of days in bed really unwell, but fortunately I was with family who entertained me even when I had to be in bed.
I try to "hope for the best, prepare for the worst". Usually the worst doesn't happen, which is a wonderful surprise every time. :-)
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PAS. Real people with real pants.
Hope the holiday goes well Sue.
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So what sort of things do people do to plan ahead for fun things -
I find needing to plan ahead with the worst case in mind is sometimes a bit depressing
Managing my hypoglycaemia drives me batshit sometimes. Yes, there are muesli bars in my handbag. Yes, I need to plan days carefully to make sure that I'm never more than about two hours away from food, just in case. Stubbornness over refusing to plan got solidly knocked on the head the time my partner had to carry me from our car to a cafe because I couldn't stand up.
Basically, with the CFS it's about always having an escape plan and the willingness to use it if necessary. And yes, hoping it doesn't but being able to admit it if it does. Going places where I can sit down if I get tired. The kind of (for me) jet-setting I've done over the last couple of years would have been completely impossible ten years ago.
Also, I found it useful to follow the advice given to women in late-stage pregnancy. Don't stand if you can sit, don't sit if you can lie down.
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PAS: better pants stories.
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I need to plan days carefully to make sure that I'm never more than about two hours away from food, just in case
Who are you, Shackleton? I'm pretty sure I would never want to find myself more than two hours away from food regardless of my hypoglycaemia.
PAS: better pants stories.
Outstanding.
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PAS. Pants: the long and the short of it.
Stopping now.
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