OnPoint by Keith Ng

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OnPoint: Student Loans are Loans (Duh.)

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  • Lilith __, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    such a strong culture of anti-elitism has a strong culture of intellectual snobbery

    I have an Arts degree from Canty and a BDes from CPIT. When I started the BDes it had just become a degree programme and there was a strong feeling in the department that we had something to prove. Boy did they make us work hard!! Far harder than I ever worked at Uni. Not apples with apples, I know. But I reckon I worked 2-3 times harder, at least. In a largely practical course, there is no coasting along and making it up at the end.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3298 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    True, though hi-res videoconferencing over genuine broadband will help connect colleagues across NZ as well as worldwide.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    ironic that [NZ has] a strong culture of anti-elitism [and] a strong culture of intellectual snobbery

    Not just ironic; conflate the two and you get anti-intellectualism.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 808 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    A "University of New Zealand" has been suggested several times. With campuses at various sites.

    Like that. Didn't it start that way until mid last century?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Sacha,

    Didn’t [University of New Zealand] start that way until mid last century?

    Nope. University of Otago Site Act 1875 and Auckland University College Land Act 1908 (mentioning the AUC Land Exchange Act 1892) show that there were discrete universities by the start of last century.

    There was apparently a shake-up in the early 1960s as the “modern” establishment Acts for Auckland, Canterbury, Lincoln and Otago were passed in 1961, and for Massey, Victoria and Waikato in 1963.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3731 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    Please remember there are actual people in this discussion who fit that categorisation, and are understandably likely to take such statements as personal attacks. Not helpful.

    Quite. I'd ask everyone to relax a bit, please. Challenge ideas rather than attacking people.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 17938 posts Report Reply

  • Fooman, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I think you need SONAR to deal with U-Boats, not RADAR.

    Not entirely, U-boats spent most of their time on the surface but because of their low profile, radar, particularly at the time, would have struggled

    Actually, because of the effectiveness of the radar systems, at the time, the Germans started using the snorkel to provide air for their diesel engines, rather than running on the surface, and risking detection by ship and aircraft bourne radar (e.g. Sunderland Flying Boat).

    FM

    Lower Hutt • Since Dec 2009 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Russell Brown,

    That’s an odd argument.

    I said here:

    Another option is that many people can have input into the decision, including the shop floor scientists, the scientists who are somewhere up the chain towards management, the specialist managers, and the people who have to pay for it all decide. Also, the books have to balance, or it's unsustainable, so accountants really do need to be involved.

    So I'm not making the argument you suggest there. That's a reiteration of Bart's false binary.

    Presumably, then, we should ignore anything teachers have to say about education policy.

    No, same comment, they're a part of the decision making process, but not the only part.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8015 posts Report Reply

  • NBH, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Not quite Matthew - Otago is the only NZ university that predates the University of New Zealand, with the others (except AUT of course) being established as colleges of the UoNZ. The relevant wikipedia article covers the basics.

    Wellington • Since Oct 2008 • 88 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to BenWilson,

    Presumably, then, we should ignore anything teachers have to say about education policy

    No, same comment, they’re a part of the decision making process, but not the only part.

    How have teachers have any say in recent educational policy decision-making? Apart from saying they won’t do what the govt wants, and being threatened by the govt.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3298 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to BenWilson,

    many people can have input into the decision, including the shop floor scientists, the scientists who are somewhere up the chain towards management, the specialist managers, and the people who have to pay for it all decide. Also, the books have to balance, or it’s unsustainable, so accountants really do need to be involved.

    You're saying that several people, and several types of expert, need to be involved in funding decisions? How is that controversial? I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3298 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    Since Dec 2006 • 2468 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to NBH,

    Ah, interesting. Explains the rush of legislation setting up the rest.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3731 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    You’re saying that several people, and several types of expert, need to be involved in funding decisions? How is that controversial? I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that.

    He said it 3 pages back.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 5696 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    Wait til they get rid of elected reps and stack university councils with business-people. We should have a 'For Sale' sign tattooed on our foreheads at birth :(

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 1353 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Wait til they get rid of elected reps and stack university councils with business-people.

    Yes, most people don't seem to know that's on the way. For those who see universities as sausage factories, successful butchers have all the expertise needed.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    He said it 3 pages back.

    Yes, I realise that. I'm just trying to understand what he's arguing.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3298 posts Report Reply

  • merc, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Well business people know best, monetise welfare with a special group over and above the existing department, same for Christchurch...oh wait I see a pattern here.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2468 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Lilith __,

    Yes, I realise that. I’m just trying to understand what he’s arguing.

    :)) I don't think he was meant to be arguing. Sometimes it just gets that way with a difference of opinion.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 5696 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to merc,

    collecting the honey dues...

    Joyce has the solution

    Looks like Joyce is finally getting some use out of his (free?) Zoology degree - it sounds like he is describing aphid farming with the Government/universities as the ants - he constantly presents foreign students as a source of income or future support for New Zealand, but never mentions us embracing them and their culture - it's all take, take, take...
    I'm guessing with his eye on the market he'll be expecting the same ant behaviour referenced in this study Defensive behavior of ants in a mutualistic relationship with aphids where the ants repel rival ants (from other universities) before protecting aphids (overseas students) from other predators (the often quite racist attitudes of the lumpen proletariat).
    If we want foreign students to come we have to embrace and accommodate them properly, not just form a parasitic relationship with their wallets.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 4198 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Antymatter

    Looks like Joyce is finally getting some use out of his (free?) Zoology degree

    Joyce ups the anty? (the opposite of an anty depressant)
    Does that make him an agony ant? Or perhaps an ant-agonist?

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3298 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    Or just another common or garden anty-intellectual? :(

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 1353 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Expelled from the garden....

    garden anty-intellectual

    Adamant!

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3298 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    I don't think he was meant to be arguing.

    Kind of. I was actually responding, as can be seen in the original comment that I quoted, to:

    either you let scientists who have had the experience of working with brilliant people make the choice on who should get funding or you let an accountant in wtgn make that choice on who should get funding.

    I don't feel comfortable in either box. Lilith regards my response as uncontroversial, which I'm happy about. I don't really think I'm the one making controversial statements here, just questioning them, asking for a whole lot more substantiation.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8015 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    he constantly presents foreign students as a source of income or future support for New Zealand

    Selling this kind of policy to middle New Zealand, he has to omit the fact that At least 20% of international students gain permanent residence within 5 years of their first student permit welcomed with a top notch welfare system, free healthcare and education, an excellent superannuation scheme, residence for immediate family members and a relatively viable passport, all for less than a princely sum.

    In it’s way it plays a part in financially and demographically compensating for that element of the New Zealand diaspora motivated primarily by the initial student loan set up and 7% interest.

    Best hope they are embraced and accommodated better than our own sons and daughters.

    Lilith regards my response as uncontroversial

    I thought taking on Darwin was a mite provocative ;)

    中国 • Since Jan 2010 • 888 posts Report Reply

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