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Speaker: All aboard: The choice for young New Zealanders

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  • kiwicafe,

    I feel so sad, yeah right, for young people today. I guess people felt sad about me as a 21 year old back in 1964 as I left for Australia with ideas of my OS but didn't return for 43 years :) Money rules, Money fools! I never did it for the money but for the adventure and that is what my life has been. Why didn't I return after a couple of years? What was there in NZ in the 60's? Not a lot. What is there in NZ for a young person today? Not a lot. We live in a land that we have fucked. We live in a society that is sick. There is no leadership, no vitality apart from the Greens. I look around the Wairarapa at the divisive groups that control and kill. I look at the drunkedness on Lambton Quay. I look at the so called financial geniuses that have ripped kiwis for years. I look at the Elam educated who control the Art world. The keepers of the gate are killing this country continually, have been for well over a century. We need healthy rebellion, away from the pursuit of money. Moving to Australia is simply running away. I know, that is what I did. But now I am back and have MND only to find the Ministry of Health controlling my creativity. We are a mini fascist society, it's a hang over from Westminster, time for a serious change of direction. First we need a simple but inspiring Bill of Rights based on the Treaty and as well as a legal and binding Constitution, which we do not have today. Will those who leave, please leave the light on for those who stay :)

    South Wairarapa • Since Nov 2011 • 3 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Arena, that short-term equation you mention must be pretty compelling for young graduates. When our public agencies are allowed to start recruiting again rather than laying off staff, I wonder if anyone has suggested they might offer those hiring bonuses too? Maybe offer a tax incentive to private employers to do the same, even?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16277 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed,

    Themes like this were explored in Four Horsemen, which I saw @ Documentary Edge last night.

    NZers will always go overseas to explore the world and escape the '2 degrees of separation'. The real issue is what stops them from coming back. On the other hand, every Louis Crimp who emigrates to Queensland has done their civic duty.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4060 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    It’s a choice every young person on the brink of their professional life might make, between living your values and trying to get quick break.

    Except that's not the choice. The reality is you can live your values anywhere. You can contribute to improving Australian or British or French or US society just as easily as you can contribute to NZ society. The idea that the only society you are part of is NZ is wrong, you are part of the human race and can contribute anywhere.

    So now the choice is:
    contribute in NZ where you get paid less and have your income taxed to pay for your temerity to do tertiary study
    or
    contribute somewhere else in the world and get paid more and don't get punished for having the audacity to educate yourself beyond the minimum.

    Stay in NZ for lots of reasons, like family and friends, and because it's beautiful here, but not simply to because you believe this is the only place you can contribute. You can and should live your values, you should also be rewarded (and even respected) for your contribution.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3221 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to DeepRed,

    this, this and this

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3121 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    around 26% of my graduating class will earn less than $20Kpa until 2016

    Because NZ doesn't need many lawyers, and needs even less grads who've learn't some law and some <strike>management bullshit</strike> sorry, 'commerce'.

    (I've had the misfortunate of dealing commercially with the University of Auckland, and the concept of them teaching business is akin to King Herod teaching childcare).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4361 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    you should also be rewarded (and even respected) for your contribution

    I'd settle for either.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16277 posts Report Reply

  • Christopher Nimmo,

    Missing a zero in that child poverty figure...

    Wellington • Since May 2009 • 96 posts Report Reply

  • izogi,

    It’s a choice every young person on the brink of their professional life might make, between living your values and trying to get quick break.

    Maybe for some in legal professions but I'm specifically living over the ditch because my partner was stressed and starting to get quite depressed about finding someone to employ her for what she was trained in, after searching for more than a year. Finally applying in Australia resulted in an offer immediately with full shifting costs, and we very very reluctantly decided to jump ship and contribute to Australia's economy and solving Australia's problems instead.

    Similar knowledge economy issue, though. For many scientific positions especially (and perhaps others?), New Zealand employers simply won't take people who haven't either worked or studied overseas, which is a big difference from a few decades back when many of the currently well known kiwi scientists who actually live in NZ established themselves. But today there's very little investment in providing the stepladders to help people move from the bottom to the top of their field, and instead it just becomes an exercise in hiring people already at the top from overseas. Hopefully we'll be back some day because for us it was a big sacrifice in quality of life.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 290 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to izogi,

    Similar knowledge economy issue, though. For many scientific positions especially (and perhaps others?), New Zealand employers simply won’t take people who haven’t either worked or studied overseas, which is a big difference from a few decades back when many of the currently well known kiwi scientists who actually live in NZ established themselves. But today there’s very little investment in providing the stepladders to help people move from the bottom to the top of their field, and instead it just becomes an exercise in hiring people already at the top from overseas. Hopefully we’ll be back some day because for us it was a big sacrifice in quality of life.

    Cargo cultism, methinks? Treasury and MinEdu are also the latest cases of importing 'bureaucratic Brits' who'll happily tow the line.

    A good friend of mine was in the doldrums for a few years, and believe it or not, he struggled to find work even in Australia and Europe. That is, until a research position opened up for him at Douglas Pharmaceuticals. It’s one of those local companies that actually takes research and innovation seriously, something sadly thin on the ground in these parts.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4060 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to izogi,

    applying in Australia resulted in an offer immediately with full shifting costs, and we very very reluctantly decided to jump ship and contribute to Australia's economy and solving Australia's problems instead.

    Same thing happened to my yougest brother and his family and by best mate and his partner - all graduates made redundant looked for work for a year couldn't get anywhere - applied on line for an Oz job, fly over for interivew, after a short trial period - job offer and moving costs.

    They won't be coming back - they want a future for their children - they have made the right choice for them..

    Seeing NZ, since the Mid 80's, manage itself out of an economy is torture and what is going down at present is worse - torturous incompetence - a ship of fools this National Govt - their stewardship will amount to contracting out the further contraction of the NZ economy.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1174 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to DexterX,

    all graduates made redundant looked for work for a year couldn't get anywhere

    We were certainly strung along for months at a time on several occasions only to be told there was no job (or money) at the end of it... and she played the game several times with acronym-happy recruitment agents hiding in front of other opportunities, and doing what recruitment agents often do for people with qualifications they don't understand. (I know recruitment agents are often part of finding work in NZ, but when the potential opportunities for work that'd make you happy are usually in the single digits, that sort of thing just drives you into the dirt after a while, which is why we got sick of it.)

    I'm still convinced it's a temporary thing because I miss the place a lot and I'm getting sick of only coming back for a few days at a time then having to leave again, but the driving factor for us to return is still going to have to be us actually really wanting to make it happen. New Zealand doesn't make it easy in its present state.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 290 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to izogi,

    today there's very little investment in providing the stepladders

    That has been our private sector's weakness for some time - refusal to play their part in ongoing training, research and development, etc. Hands out for corporate welfare instead. And then the pricks complain about 'big govt' or 'crowding out'.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16277 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Sacha,

    That has been our private sector's weakness for some time - refusal to play their part in ongoing training, research and development, etc. Hands out for corporate welfare instead. And then the pricks complain about 'big govt' or 'crowding out'.

    And watching Four Horsemen at the Documentary Edge fest, it pointed out the horrible misuse of Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations by banksters. With apologies to Ronald Reagan, I came to the conclusion that a bankster reads Adam Smith. A non-bankster understands Adam Smith. One obvious section is often glossed over by the usual suspects:

    "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary."

    To take a local example, pre-unbundling Telecom failed on all of Smith's counts. It's not hard to find other more recent examples in these parts.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4060 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    So now the choice is:
    contribute in NZ where you get paid less and have your income taxed to pay for your temerity to do tertiary study
    or

    Except now if you leave you can expect to get an email from IRD demanding a contact phone number and convenient times to talk so they can discuss with you your loan repayment obligations. They can't tax your money overseas, but they are developing other ways to get that money.

    Please note: I am certainly not blaming IRD. I owe them money, it is their job to get it back. I am blaming the government and NZ's excuse for business leadership for making it so difficult to pay that money back. One New Zealand Dollar currently equals five-odd Yuan Renminbi, which puts my loan balance somewhere stratospherical and my earnings seem minute considering I live in a third world country and earn third world wages. Guess I should've looked for a job in an Australian mine instead of a job where my particular set of skills and experience are actually useful....

    Beijing • Since Jan 2007 • 1964 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    I’m 65.
    I now earn very little.
    I think I have contributed somewhat to – here.
    ‘Here’ – for me – is – ki a whenua me te whanau – I do not exist without both.
    I have numerous siblings existing overseas (especially in Australia.)
    They find life much easier over there (not least for substantial financial reasons.)
    ANZ is the loser, because their skills would make a substantial difference here (especially in nursing.)
    Nothing this current festerdom of slimy insiders’ government in ANZ is going to change matters.
    I look to the young members of the whanau – who I support as much however/whenever I can – to know that – whatever career they choose to pursue, where-ever they choose to travel- *here* was the place that made & formed them – and that here is home.
    And – here is where they are ultimately needed.

    (O- people who like wordplay might like to check out meanings of ‘here’ in both Maori & English.)

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Islander,

    O- people who like wordplay might like to check out meanings of ‘here’ in both Maori & English.

    Took up the challenge. I hadn't expected 'here' to be a Maori word - although I guess I should've, considering that particular arrangement of letters seems to fit all the usual rules of Maori word formation. All I can say is that for all these years in China I still feel a very strong tie or bind or even obligation to the chain of islands I was born and raised on.

    Beijing • Since Jan 2007 • 1964 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    YAY Chris!

    You're familiar with 'faux ami': my favourite in Maori is angina- (simply because it is the longest string of letters I've yet found that means something in both my languages - and doesnt translate!)

    It's coming up to Matariki: I like to send appropriate gifts to people I've never met
    but esteem for that celebration - would you & yours like a Matariki calendar? Please contact via the email link if so- cheers n/n Keri

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Stay in NZ for lots of reasons, like family and friends, and because it's beautiful here, but not simply to because you believe this is the only place you can contribute. You can and should live your values, you should also be rewarded (and even respected) for your contribution.

    I (and my partner) want to come back to NZ, not because we can't contribute anywhere else, but because it's the country we were born and raised in and that gave us the tools and opportunities for success, and we believe we owe it to both NZ and future Kiwis to contribute to it and their future success. Especially since, right now, it feels like a lot of those opportunities are being deliberately taken away from people.

    Whether this is going to be possible while maintaining my career in my chosen field is quite another question. But I feel like we have to try.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2092 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    Go fer-!
    I have invested everything I own & have thing - here.
    So be it.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    My take on it is this: if you are lucky enough to have a choice about where you live - because let's face it, lots of people don't have the life experience or money that give them the options - then that is up to each person to decide for themselves. Could the NZ govt make it easier? I'm not sure they could, and even if they did, I don't know what proportion of people would still stay. In my experience, people leave for a number of reasonably complicated reasons. It may, or may not, have become more about the money, but usually there are other reasons that have nothing to do with money at all. Do young NZers still leave on their OE's? I've met a number of people in their 20's, recently, who have never left the country. Are they going when they're older. It's a big big question. For myself, I did the OE, and I was very glad to get back home. I can't imagine living anywhere else. I've said it before and it worth repeating - I have very strong connections to this place, the land especially. My time overseas was interesting, but I had no extraordinary skills when I left, and I brought none back. My skills have only become more valuable as I've gained experience in my chosen field of work. This question exercises people - I'm afraid it's never exercised me. I don't believe we can stop people from leaving, and I don't believe there's a whole lot we can do to bring people back. But maybe that's just me.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3121 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    Do young NZers still leave on their OE's? I've met a number of people in their 20's, recently, who have never left the country. Are they going when they're older. It's a big big question.

    Well, it's a trick question to start with; the OE was and is a middle-class experience, predicated on having the time/money/lack of ties (especially children)/encouragement to undertake it. Most of my year-group at high school have gone or are on OEs; but they also mostly went to university. A lot of those that didn't were prevented by illness, early childbearing, lack of money, or family expectations. I don't know how the numbers have changed over the years, but I doubt it was ever a universal experience in the way it's sometimes portrayed.

    Could the NZ govt make it easier? I'm not sure they could, and even if they did, I don't know what proportion of people would still stay.

    People will always leave. It's about attracting them back and attracting young people from *other* countries who want to bring their skills and talents to our shores. The best thing the government can do, honestly, is make sure there's a good standard of living to come back to - people will take pay cuts for family and lifestyle, but not if there's no or little chance of *any* job that uses their education and experience.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2092 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    Oh I entirely agree that there should be a good standard of living to come back to, of course. I just think it's a little more complicated for a lot of people. Every country has diaspora, and I think we stand out simply because we have a smaller population. So I think angst over this issue will always be with us, as will the conversations about how we get people back.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3121 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to DeepRed,

    New Word Order...

    ...the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the
    public, or in some contrivance to raise prices

    Putting the cartel before the whores?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 4555 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    So I think angst over this issue will always be with us, as will the conversations about how we get people back.

    Xero founder Rod Drury rightly believes one way to do so is "digital trade routes". All the more so, if NZ can sort out the cartellised nature of its broadband.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4060 posts Report Reply

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