Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Actors Don't Hunt in Packs

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  • Emma Hart,

    It's cleaner and more strict than dominatrix, and probably wears a tailored shirt in a narrow sky-blue stripe. It may use wooden rulers.

    Not that I've spent any time thinking about this.

    I think she might wear this...

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4379 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    And shallow is bad, right?

    If it is, I am in biiiiig trouble. Oh, screw it, I'm going to Hell anyway.

    Honestly Jackie, you've worked hard to develop those muscles. Nothing wrong with wanting to show them off. It's not shallow vanity, it's justifiable pride. I take pride in my rack, and I did nothing to get it.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    If it is, I am in biiiiig trouble. Oh, screw it, I'm going to Hell anyway.

    Do they have shoes and margaritas in hell? Because that sounds like it could be OK. I'll come with you.

    ETA: Jackie, embrace the cleavage!

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3669 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Do they have shoes and margaritas in hell?

    They appear to have pretty much all my favourite people, which is recommendation enough in itself.

    Though I think I get some karma-credit for not hitting on Megan when she fed me that fabulous straight line up there.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4379 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Do they have shoes and margaritas in hell?

    Might be how you get in.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan,

    Do they have shoes and margaritas in hell? Because that sounds like it could be OK. I'll come with you.

    I'm so there. Although, for the record they have both those things in Wellington too. Just sayin'.

    Though I think I get some karma-credit for not hitting on Megan when she fed me that fabulous straight line up there.

    I'm a little hurt you didn't...

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    The thing about body modesty is a strange thing. I am extremely reticent about showing my body (it takes me a heck of a long time to prance about happily nude in front of lovers, except in the throes of actual seXXX0rings), but I am also extremely unjudgemental of others. Also, funnily enough, I don't give a toss about what people think of my body - I'm reasonably happy with mine.

    But I do resent mightily being shamed about my modesty. I'm am happy to enable someone else's "cast it all to the winds" attitude - in fact, it's an attractive quality to me - but I really hate being told to "get over it" myself. I'm over 40, I'm pretty well adjusted, and it just isn't that likely to happen now. If I need to retire to the loo to get changed, what on earth does it matter to someone else?

    I still haven't quite pinned down what the issue is - a combination of a semi-Irish family culture, abuse during childhood, and determined attempts to "feminise" me during adolescence (which failed dismally) perhaps. Anyway, I don't care that much; it's a pretty minor quirk, AFAIC.

    But again, I do admire those who really are happy to prance about in all states of dress. It's nice to see.

    As for the book, nice, erm, cover. :-)

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    Regarding the link to the "governess" outfit, holy fucking shit. If I get to take the ruler off Teacher, she can wear that any time.

    ::refurls tongue::

    Getting back on some kind of topic, I had something to say to Patrick Smith about "aviatrix". Cute up till, say, the 40s. Not so much subsequently. It's the condescending nature of highlighting gender when it comes to an occupation that gets me. Especially since English nouns don't need to be gendered. Although it is funny how waiter/waitress, steward/stewardess are hanging on...

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I thought, "what, even people in Australia are in on this book cover lark?"

    Then looked for the first time in ages at the main PA site, not PAS. Harrumph.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    But I do resent mightily being shamed about my modesty. I'm am happy to enable someone else's "cast it all to the winds" attitude - in fact, it's an attractive quality to me - but I really hate being told to "get over it" myself. I'm over 40, I'm pretty well adjusted, and it just isn't that likely to happen now. If I need to retire to the loo to get changed, what on earth does it matter to someone else?

    Point taken. I'm afraid that I need to be reminded sometimes that we are all different. I just like it when I'm happy and I want others to be too. So it comes from a place of love.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3123 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    what on earth does it matter to someone else?

    Seems a central question in most discussions about what are sometimes called "morals". Where individual and group imperatives intersect, I guess.

    For a more academic philosophical take, there's always that other thread.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Mrs Skin,

    But I do resent mightily being shamed about my modesty.

    Thank you Tracy, that is exactly the point I'd intended to make earlier but sort of forgot to say. My modesty is something I value highly about myself, I really like it. It is both fundamental to, and illustrative of, my personality.

    ...it comes from a place of love.

    We know :)

    Now - does anybody have anything about the criminal justice system in the 18th century that they'd like to share? You have until 9 a.m. Monday.

    the warmest room in the h… • Since Feb 2009 • 168 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Really is worth checking out that movie.

    I have seen it once, a few years ago, and remember being a bit underwhelmed. Probably doesn't help that pretty boy Law is in a lead role.

    But I'll check it out again, just for you.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    does anybody have anything about the criminal justice system in the 18th century that they'd like to share?

    Yes. You can get a crappy paperback copy of the Newgate Calendar for less than $5 from Real Groovy or similar stockists of Wordsworth Editions and read slaveringly prurient 18th century crime... journalism? I'm not sure how to describe it. But anyway, you can marvel at allegedly true accounts of theft, robbery, fraud, murder etc, and note how little deterrence the Bloody Code provided in practice.

    The reason for this might be that without an effective police force, criminals were only brought to justice when arrested by private persons or beadles or other functionaries for whom criminal arrest was just a sideline. So though you might be hanged for stealing a sheep, your odds of getting away, or bribing the people who held you, were pretty good.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2977 posts Report Reply

  • Mrs Skin,

    Stephen, you are my New Best Friend.

    The odds of getting away with it were probably increased by the JP's ability to throw the complainant in jail until the trial, just to make sure they turned up. Not sure why that was dropped from the toolset...

    the warmest room in the h… • Since Feb 2009 • 168 posts Report Reply

  • Raymond A Francis,

    Mrs Skin
    One of my ancestors and two of his wives got caught up in the 18th century law system. Their reward was a one-way trip to Australia
    Kennedy Murray (Google him if you need more details) went through the Scottish system and was obviously an opportunist petty thief, of course now he would be unlucky to get fined let alone sent around the world
    The women went through the English system, I think for stealing pieces of material, I have yet to find what drove them to this but there are hints that revenge for not handing out sexual favours lead to at least one accusation.
    In some ways the trip was the making of them but quite frankly unless you were both rich and titled it was not a good time to be alive
    “Convict women” by Kay Daniels is an interesting look at the results of the legal system of the time

    45' South • Since Nov 2006 • 548 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    If I need to retire to the loo to get changed, what on earth does it matter to someone else?

    I totally get the difference between privacy and shame, though it's very hard to distinguish from the outside. But I don't think it's quite that 'this is just me' simple. It wasn't me, after all, who taught my daughter to be ashamed of her body, but her peers - most of whom through a quirk of demographics come from evangelical families. Our attitudes to our own bodies do rub off on strangers - but I don't mean that to in any way imply that I think anybody has an obligation to behave in a way that makes them uncomfortable, because like anything else it's about trying to remove stigma from one choice, not add it to another.

    When it comes to privacy, my body may be in my sharing folder, but that doesn't mean that an awful lot of other things aren't.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4379 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    But I'll check it out again, just for you.

    Do it for Emma. You'll notice the right stuff, that way.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Mrs Skin,

    Thanks Raymond! There's quite a bit of interesting stuff around the context of your ancestors' offences and punishments. Feel free to email me if you'd like some links.

    Emma - I wonder if the privacy/shame perception split has arisen quite recently. I don't recall shame being the default even 15 years ago, which was about the time heroin chic and super-skinny models appeared and (apparently) started to alter our 'standards' for ourselves.

    the warmest room in the h… • Since Feb 2009 • 168 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    No worries, Jackie - I actually wasn't too worried about anyone's remarks in this thread. It's more the "what's your problem?" to my face in those circs that winds me up.

    And yes, Emma, you're right. I was going to burble a bit more about why these things come about, but thought I'd try and shorten my previous comment somewhat. :-)

    Being "overly" modest is often not a positive trait, and for me it's certainly due to more or less fucked-up stuff. And yep, for many, it's probably early family (or societal) culture, and feeling judged about/defined by our bodies. For me, I know a major factor is I have a HUGE need for privacy in general - it's hard dealing with the feeling that "my space" is being impinged on.

    But, whatever, at least at this stage of my life. It's like people who want to analyse to the nth degree what makes them queer or kinky. I don't know, there are probably a multitude of factors, and I'm quite happy with the way I am at present, minor hang-ups and all.

    But I do have some envy for those who feel freer about their bodies, I mightily resent the factors that make people feel ashamed, and I wish that younger people in particular didn't get burdened with that kind of thing. However, not everyone who needs more modesty feels actual shame about themselves - I don't, any more, even though the behaviour is there.

    It also shouldn't tip over into shaming adolescents (or anyone) about their modesty - I can certainly vouch for the fact that being told to get over myself in that area had exactly the reverse effect as a teenager. There are better ways of showing concern and bolstering self-esteem. Although I agree that esteem-bolstering efforts - if shame seems to be a factor - should be made early on to ensure that those feelings don't become too entrenched in anyone.

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    Oh, @Sasha, indeed. But I also think "morals" are more about how your behaviour might have an impact on others. As far as I know, unless I'm hogging a toilet cubicle for hours when someone else has a desperate need to use it, there's not much of a moral or ethical factor in my modesty quirks. :-)

    Therefore, it's none of anyone's bloody beeswax (unless they're a counsellor or parent who has some accountability for tackling whatever might be causing shame issues).

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Yet people feel compelled to take an interest even when your behaviour has no individual impact on them - that's what I found interesting.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16996 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    TracyMac, my modesty is also deeply rooted in an almost abnormal need for privacy ('almost' because I think I'm fairly normal. Except for this & that. Well OK, I think I'm completely *natural.*) I've always been like this (according to my mother, who knows me way better than anyone else) and it wasnt/isnt 'caused' by anything -it's just the way I am.

    But -I've never minded the nude gambolling that goes on here in Big O - skinnydipping by the light of the Hogmanay bonfire is an ancient tradition in Big O. I just dont join in-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    ancient tradition = at least quarter of a century old!

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    . . .the nude gambolling that goes on here in Big O . . .

    Now I'm curious. Not about the nudity per se, but about the sandfly factor. See, I finally got to visit your big O at the end of May (not for want of trying in the past), and stayed about half an hour, just before sundown. Very impressive, though was squashing the last stragglers of the vast sandfly swarm that had hitched a ride most of the way to Haast. And I bled real blood, too.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 3628 posts Report Reply

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