Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: How much speech does it take?

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  • Paul Rowe,

    Flavell's piece made me want to be sick. The insensitive prick.

    As for Farrar, from the wikipedia entry on Nixon's Southern Strategy:

    He was able to appear moderate to most Americans because the Southern strategy referred to integration obliquely through references to states' rights and busing. This tactic was later described by liberals in the media as "dog-whistle politics'

    Lake Roxburgh, Central Ot… • Since Nov 2006 • 560 posts Report Reply

  • merc, in reply to Che Tibby,

    "The MP said he was only passing on ideas he had been told and they were not new ones." (from NZHerald).

    Same old tired line.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • Dan Salmon,

    As with most things, the issue is not so much the irrationality spewed out by damaged individuals, but the platforms others provide to validate or unite that anger to a cause or specific hatred. It's nothing to do with freedom of speech, but with decisions

    Auckland • Since Mar 2011 • 22 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Che Tibby,

    how do you make people, depressed, lonely, [other] people realise how intensely selfish their act is?

    Ideally, not by inflicting humiliation and exclusion on their families.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18822 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    Flavell. Being in a cabinet with Paula Bennett might do this to people, I think.

    1. Te Ururoa Flavell is not in Cabinet.
    2. Te Ururoa Flavell is not even a minister.
    3. The Maori Party does not have any cabinet ministers, and never has.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 2999 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Russell Brown,

    not by inflicting humiliation and exclusion on their families.

    but surely the act itself does that anyway?

    how many parents ask, "why have they done this to us? how can i look people in the eye knowing what they'll think of us?"

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2026 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Che Tibby,

    not by inflicting humiliation and exclusion on their families.

    but surely the act itself does that anyway?

    No, it does not. People do that. Mike King has a heart-rending story of an older woman who contacted him via the Nutters' Club. Her husband had suicided and she was revictimised by all his former friends, who excluded and effectively dehumanised her.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18822 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Che Tibby,

    my reading as well. people are reaming him, but, what are we do about suicides?

    Well, Che, as someone with a history of severe mental illness and multiple suicide attempts I don’t think douche-bags like Flavill shaming my parents would have done any good at all. And let’s get fucking real for a moment: That’s exactly what he’s talking about. He’s telling grieving Maori parents that they’re so tainted their dead child is unfit to have a tangi or be laid to rest in a family urupa. That’s no answer at all; and this kind of shit from a Member of Parliament is not only vile beyond belief, it’s dangerous when he might still be in a position to vote on mental health funding in the Parliament.

    But, hey, why don’t we take a “hard line” all the way back to the Middle Ages? Exorcisms for schizophrenics and epileptics, anyone – that should school those demoniacally possessed loonies. *eyeroll*

    ETA: Something else, Che. My relationship with my mother is (to put it politely) distant and chilly, but I would never ever hold her responsible for my manic-depression. And whatever I think of her, if I'd bled out or successfully OD'ed, I know she would have honestly mourned and not deserved being shunned and abused.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11902 posts Report Reply

  • merc, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Sadly this is not an uncommon response.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Rowe,

    Thank you for that response Craig. Verbalised my anger very well.

    Lake Roxburgh, Central Ot… • Since Nov 2006 • 560 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Russell Brown,

    so they buried her at the gate, when they said goodbye to him.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2026 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Che Tibby,

    one of the great ironies is that multicultural policies, as implemented in australia and canada, are actually intended to first integrate, then assimilate ethnic minorities. the explicit intention of the policy is to make it easier for minorities to blend in.

    the evidence of its success is places like lygon street in melbourne, and the wholesale digestion of vietnamese, greek and italian cultures by “mainstream” australians.

    My theory is Australian multiculturalism policy is really an 'honorary whites' policy at heart, because somehow it doesn't apply to the Aborigines.

    NZ's ethnic policy isn't a melting pot like America, nor a whitener like France, nor a Canadian tossed salad. I'm sometimes tempted to think it's more of a side dish, because policy seems to care little more than migrant and foreign students' wallets.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4230 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    No, it does not. People do that. Mike King has a heart-rending story of an older woman who contacted him via the Nutters’ Club. Her husband had suicided and she was revictimised by all his former friends, who excluded and effectively dehumanised her.

    And in that kind of situation, I can understand (but never condone) people directly affected by a suicide processing their own toxic cocktail of grief and guilt and anger in the most awful way imaginable. Flavell doesn't have that excuse: He's a fraking Member of Parliament who, one hopes, doesn't write newspaper columns with a ouija board and a bottle of gin.

    And this needs to be repeated: In six months, Flavell may still be in a position to meaningfully influence policy, funding and provision of health services to at-risk Maori youth and people with mental health issues. Given the attitudes he's displayed (and the deafening silence of the Maori Party's alleged leadership), I think I'm justified in being uneasy.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11902 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to DeepRed,

    because somehow it doesn’t apply to the Aborigines.

    it is an honorary whites policy. the idea was to acclimatize "wogs" so they'd fit in better over generations. they still use it for Asians and Africans. the fly in the ointment was the effect that it was projected to have on the white population (and which it did).

    aboriginal people on the other hand were explicitly excluded from the policy, whereas in NZL we have an implicit multicultural policy for Asians/Pacific Islanders, and an explicit bicultural policy for Maori (and which is allied to, but a different beast from multiculturalism).

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2026 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    The Standard is not the left-wing equivalent of the sewer. It's a partisan site whose authors stand up for their beliefs.

    On Kiwibleurgh (let alone places like Slater's blog), a majority of the commentators are predicate violent racists and bigots, and they are the ones on the "side" of the blog owners. On the Standard, you will find very few people supporting views at a similar extreme of the left (e.g. spiky anarchists / revolutionary maoists and the like). The snark at the Standard stems from the large number of right-wingers trolling the site and the righteous abuse they attract. IMHO, if the owners of the site were to ban righties from commenting, that would all go away and the site would be a much nicer place. But it's their call.

    This place, OTOH, is a Grey Lynn dinner party. It's accepted that one should be liberal, but not too shrill about it.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4443 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    s/cabinet/governmental cosy agreement

    ok?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4443 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Public discourse about suicide is a strange beast in NZ .... here in Dunedin there's a stretch of road along the crest of the sandhills along a public beach - it ends on a hill with some steep cliffs - for as long as anyone can remember people have been going up there and jumping off - it's an 'attractive nuisance' - a few years back the city closed the road ....

    There's been a long drawn out political discussion about whether the road should be open - it's sort of portrayed as a cars vs. walking/biking fight - but largely because the local paper wont print anything (especially not letters to the editor) about the suicide risk - a years or so ago the council was bullied into opening the road, someone jumped the next day, they closed it again - there are petitions, facebook pages, people with placards etc etc all in favour of opening the road - but the public discourse here is IMHO deeply flawed because no one can talk about the elephant in the room - the local politicians can't win - and there's going to be no resolution of this issue

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2123 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    The snark at the Standard stems from the large number of right-wingers trolling the site and the righteous abuse they attract. IMHO, if the owners of the site were to ban righties from commenting, that would all go away and the site would be a much nicer place. But it’s their call.

    Well, clearly, they'd have to ban me too. I got sick of being abused when I commented there.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18822 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    On the Standard, you will find very few people supporting views at a similar extreme of the left (e.g. spiky anarchists / revolutionary maoists and the like). The snark at the Standard stems from the large number of right-wingers trolling the site and the righteous abuse they attract.

    That has absolutely not been my experience of The Standard. My experience there has been one of astoundingly nasty commenters telling the "ladyees" to sit down and shut up about our issues, because nobody cares about them.

    I avoid both Kiwiblog, and TS, because I don't have the energy for that kind of rhetoric. And my issue with David in particular, is that he baits his commenters, and he sets them up to say exactly what he knows they are going to say. And that's vile.

    On a much much worse scale, it's like Pamela Geller arguing that she is utterly innocent in the Norway massacre. Which is not to say she's responsible, but when you spew bile and hatred, you can't be surprised when someone listens.

    “It’s like equating Charles Manson, who heard in the lyrics of Helter Skelter a calling for the Manson murders,” Geller said in an exclusive phone interview. “It’s like blaming the Beatles. It’s patently ridiculous.

    Actually, it's not.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    The Standard is not the left-wing equivalent of the sewer. It’s a partisan site whose authors stand up for their beliefs.

    With all due disrespect, Rich, when you’ve being called a house nigger at both The Standard and Kiwiblog let’s see if you want to split that hair any further. And please… Lynn Prentice can keep blaming those nasty right-wing trolls for everything that’s unpleasant about The Standard, but he’s lying. I say that because I don’t believe he’s that stupid or clueless about his own site.

    In the end, if Prentice and Farrar can live with (and make some pin-money out of) troll-farming, that’s their prerogative. If they can't (or won't) keep the toxic waste out of the comments, that's their (ir)responsibility. It would be nice, however, if they’d cut the crap and own it. Just once.

    That has absolutely not been my experience of The Standard. My experience there has been one of astoundingly nasty commenters telling the “ladyees” to sit down and shut up about our issues, because nobody cares about them.

    Damn right, Megan. But I do find it blackly comic that both Kiwibog and The Standard have a sliding scale for sexist or downright misogynistic fuck-wittery as long as (of course) the women concerned are “the enemy”. I know saying this raises certain hackles here – tough. Truth hurts, take two aspirin and don’t call me in the morning.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11902 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    a sliding scale for sexist or downright misogynistic fuck-wittery as long as (of course) the women concerned are “the enemy”.

    Oh, hells yes. It's OK to comment on a female politician's appearance, as long as she sits on the wrong side of the house. To repeat myself, actually, it's not.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1273 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Teh Standard has all the hallmarks of 'we ARE struggling together!". The Kiwiblog commenters' club is Tea Party Central.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4230 posts Report Reply

  • Alex Coleman,

    Today, on KB, the debate was whether Glenn Beck was quoted out of context, or just plain correct. That has morphed into pointing out that Norway gives aid money to palestinians, which is the same thing as killing Jews, dontchaknow.

    As truly unpleasant as the Standard can be at times, I don't really see them as equivalent.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 212 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to DeepRed,

    Teh Standard has all the hallmarks of ‘we ARE struggling together!”. The Kiwiblog commenters’ club is Tea Party Central.

    I don’t think the two are really the same, no. I don’t enjoy the atmosphere at The Standard, but it’s not home to the truly marginal, overtly racist types like Kris K the way Kiwiblog is. I’ve never seen the Standard equivalent of the KB thread I linked to in my post, for example. But there are certainly a few self-righteous jerks there.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18822 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Alex Coleman,

    Today, on KB, the debate was whether Glenn Beck was quoted out of context, or just plain correct. That has morphed into pointing out that Norway gives aid money to palestinians, which is the same thing as killing Jews, dontchaknow.

    Far fucking out. That's an inane discussion ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18822 posts Report Reply

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