such a strong culture of anti-elitism has a strong culture of intellectual snobbery
I have an Arts degree from Canty and a BDes from CPIT. When I started the BDes it had just become a degree programme and there was a strong feeling in the department that we had something to prove. Boy did they make us work hard!! Far harder than I ever worked at Uni. Not apples with apples, I know. But I reckon I worked 2-3 times harder, at least. In a largely practical course, there is no coasting along and making it up at the end.
True, though hi-res videoconferencing over genuine broadband will help connect colleagues across NZ as well as worldwide.
ironic that [NZ has] a strong culture of anti-elitism [and] a strong culture of intellectual snobbery
Not just ironic; conflate the two and you get anti-intellectualism.
A "University of New Zealand" has been suggested several times. With campuses at various sites.
Like that. Didn't it start that way until mid last century?
Didn’t [University of New Zealand] start that way until mid last century?
Nope. University of Otago Site Act 1875 and Auckland University College Land Act 1908 (mentioning the AUC Land Exchange Act 1892) show that there were discrete universities by the start of last century.
There was apparently a shake-up in the early 1960s as the “modern” establishment Acts for Auckland, Canterbury, Lincoln and Otago were passed in 1961, and for Massey, Victoria and Waikato in 1963.
Please remember there are actual people in this discussion who fit that categorisation, and are understandably likely to take such statements as personal attacks. Not helpful.
Quite. I'd ask everyone to relax a bit, please. Challenge ideas rather than attacking people.
I think you need SONAR to deal with U-Boats, not RADAR.
Not entirely, U-boats spent most of their time on the surface but because of their low profile, radar, particularly at the time, would have struggled
Actually, because of the effectiveness of the radar systems, at the time, the Germans started using the snorkel to provide air for their diesel engines, rather than running on the surface, and risking detection by ship and aircraft bourne radar (e.g. Sunderland Flying Boat).
That’s an odd argument.
I said here:
Another option is that many people can have input into the decision, including the shop floor scientists, the scientists who are somewhere up the chain towards management, the specialist managers, and the people who have to pay for it all decide. Also, the books have to balance, or it's unsustainable, so accountants really do need to be involved.
So I'm not making the argument you suggest there. That's a reiteration of Bart's false binary.
Presumably, then, we should ignore anything teachers have to say about education policy.
No, same comment, they're a part of the decision making process, but not the only part.
Not quite Matthew - Otago is the only NZ university that predates the University of New Zealand, with the others (except AUT of course) being established as colleges of the UoNZ. The relevant wikipedia article covers the basics.
Presumably, then, we should ignore anything teachers have to say about education policy
No, same comment, they’re a part of the decision making process, but not the only part.
How have teachers have any say in recent educational policy decision-making? Apart from saying they won’t do what the govt wants, and being threatened by the govt.
many people can have input into the decision, including the shop floor scientists, the scientists who are somewhere up the chain towards management, the specialist managers, and the people who have to pay for it all decide. Also, the books have to balance, or it’s unsustainable, so accountants really do need to be involved.
You're saying that several people, and several types of expert, need to be involved in funding decisions? How is that controversial? I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.
Joyce has the solution, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10806103
Best headline ever.
Ah, interesting. Explains the rush of legislation setting up the rest.
You’re saying that several people, and several types of expert, need to be involved in funding decisions? How is that controversial? I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that.
He said it 3 pages back.
Wait til they get rid of elected reps and stack university councils with business-people. We should have a 'For Sale' sign tattooed on our foreheads at birth :(
Wait til they get rid of elected reps and stack university councils with business-people.
Yes, most people don't seem to know that's on the way. For those who see universities as sausage factories, successful butchers have all the expertise needed.
He said it 3 pages back.
Yes, I realise that. I'm just trying to understand what he's arguing.
Well business people know best, monetise welfare with a special group over and above the existing department, same for Christchurch...oh wait I see a pattern here.
Yes, I realise that. I’m just trying to understand what he’s arguing.
:)) I don't think he was meant to be arguing. Sometimes it just gets that way with a difference of opinion.
collecting the honey dues...
Joyce has the solution
Looks like Joyce is finally getting some use out of his (free?) Zoology degree - it sounds like he is describing aphid farming with the Government/universities as the ants - he constantly presents foreign students as a source of income or future support for New Zealand, but never mentions us embracing them and their culture - it's all take, take, take...
I'm guessing with his eye on the market he'll be expecting the same ant behaviour referenced in this study Defensive behavior of ants in a mutualistic relationship with aphids where the ants repel rival ants (from other universities) before protecting aphids (overseas students) from other predators (the often quite racist attitudes of the lumpen proletariat).
If we want foreign students to come we have to embrace and accommodate them properly, not just form a parasitic relationship with their wallets.
Looks like Joyce is finally getting some use out of his (free?) Zoology degree
Joyce ups the anty? (the opposite of an anty depressant)
Does that make him an agony ant? Or perhaps an ant-agonist?
Or just another common or garden anty-intellectual? :(
Expelled from the garden....
I don't think he was meant to be arguing.
Kind of. I was actually responding, as can be seen in the original comment that I quoted, to:
either you let scientists who have had the experience of working with brilliant people make the choice on who should get funding or you let an accountant in wtgn make that choice on who should get funding.
I don't feel comfortable in either box. Lilith regards my response as uncontroversial, which I'm happy about. I don't really think I'm the one making controversial statements here, just questioning them, asking for a whole lot more substantiation.
he constantly presents foreign students as a source of income or future support for New Zealand
Selling this kind of policy to middle New Zealand, he has to omit the fact that At least 20% of international students gain permanent residence within 5 years of their first student permit welcomed with a top notch welfare system, free healthcare and education, an excellent superannuation scheme, residence for immediate family members and a relatively viable passport, all for less than a princely sum.
In it’s way it plays a part in financially and demographically compensating for that element of the New Zealand diaspora motivated primarily by the initial student loan set up and 7% interest.
Best hope they are embraced and accommodated better than our own sons and daughters.
Lilith regards my response as uncontroversial
I thought taking on Darwin was a mite provocative ;)