Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: These things we must now change

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  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Alfie,

    Gosh, how arcane. Using 14 to symbolise a statement of principle is interesting, and attaching the historical code is kinda like tipping one's hat to the prophet.

    It does seem racist, but proponents would argue there's nothing wrong with valuing a future for your (ethnic) children, and prioritising security action on that basis.

    I can't see a court defining it as hate speech. Perhaps he used some in his manifesto, or on his guns, but everyone has been very careful so far to refrain from identifying any such evidence. Since public policy is nowadays meant to be evidence-based, everyone seems to be parking the implications for now...

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    To be clear, the guy using the 14/88 symbology discussed above is the ChCh insulation man who was arrested later... not the shooter.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1385 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Alfie,

    Good point - I was assuming they are both part of the same group but ain't necessarily so. Paul Buchanan originally referred to a cell of ten as the standard modus operandi, and the media were theorising a connection with the Chch white supremacists, but no evidence has emerged since to substantiate that eh?

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • Rob S,

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/20/facebook-google-twitter-theyd-still-be-dreadful-without-the-fascists

    No care and no responsibility from our modern digital masters, you know the ones, they don't like paying taxes or cleaning up their mess.

    I think we're on the way to dystopia and not sunlit uplands unless we start getting a handle on some big issues that our 'leaders' are failing to properly address.

    These are not easy issues I know but it's a requirement of the position if you're an elected representative to show some moral strength and clear vision.

    Climate change looking at you also.

    The levels of complacency in our parliament is best described as cynical.

    sorry for the slight threadjack.

    Since Apr 2010 • 135 posts Report Reply

  • Katita,

    So what I've been thinking...
    The gunman (*Voldemort) spent (according to some estimates) $50k on weapons and ammo. He lived in a paid-up flat. He had a paid in advance gym membership. He had travelled O/S extensively and for extended periods. He didn't seem to have a job.
    Where did the money come from? If he acted alone on the day, was he self-funded?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 65 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Katita,

    Where did the money come from?

    Media reports so far suggest an inheritance from his father and possibly a minor windfall with some oddball cyber-currency.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1385 posts Report Reply

  • Hilton Wells,

    My response was referring to your choice of language Russell. I have not written any of the offensive posts on social media that seemingly contributed to you writing ‘Christchurch was attacked’, so I had no idea how those words influenced what you wrote in the comments I responded to.

    I think you could have been clearer in distinguishing that by saying attacked, you were referrring to those comments, rather than the ACTUAL attacks that occurred on those praying at the mosques.

    There is no argument that those hurt by the shootings include classmates, playmates, workmates, friends and many others.
    I’d be very surprised if you intended to equate insensitive comments on social media re: Christchurch, with the attacks that led to people being injured, killed and left many mourning / concerned for their loved ones. Because that is how your earlier comments and your response to me, actually read Russell.

    We can respectfully disagree on how you chose to express your take on Christchurch being attacked, but you have no idea how closely I am connected to those who have been hurt, just like I do not know your personal connections.

    Your assumption re: my empathy for those affected in your reply Russell is actually a great exemplar of you lacking empathy, by inexplicably levelling this at me for questioning you (and you alone) on your comments.

    Hard to see how you felt like it was ok to assume I had no empathy towards schoolmates of victims affected by the attacks just because I thought you were inaccurate and loose with your choice of words.

    Nothing I wrote directly or indirectly denied, or referred to any way, how those closely connected to those hurt or killed should feel. I query with you whether you could be more careful and respectful with your use of the word attacked, and you accuse me of not caring about little kids greiving the loss of their friends? WTAF?!?

    That was a bit of a cheap shot and smacks of a deflection from you taking responsibility for your own writing. Someone asking you to be clearer, is no excuse for you to accuse that person of insensitivity. Not cool Russell.

    I read the comments from Emma as you suggested. I’m also not interested in those querying anyone’s right to grieve, or how they do so.

    My asking you as an experienced communicator to consider if your words could better distinguish between those physically attacked, and those affected in other ways, was not in any questioning your, or anyone else’s, right to feel aggrieved.

    My querying the wording of your comments was not me ‘dancing on a pinhead’ or contributing to a ‘pile of not-helpful’. There is a world of difference between someone being murdered, and reading offensive comments on social media. It is not at subtle difference, nor a matter of mere semantics to call you out on this.

    You have now clarified to me and others who might read this thread what you meant and were referring to when you used the word attacked.

    That actually has been helpful as it was not at all clear to me in your earlier comments, and now it is.

    Thanks.

    Since Mar 2019 • 3 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I watched a speech from our prime minister, via CNN yesterday. She spoke of her intention to publicly underplay the perpetrators relevance by never even uttering his name.

    She said she wants to direct attentions more towards the victims here. Which I agree is an important thing to do. Adding names, faces and extended family context is one way to reduce the risk of these things continuing to happen because its harder to kill our friends. I think that’s the theory. People who commit such heinous crimes clearly have no empathy for their victims, but might actually be operating our of crazy constructed empathy for their own people who they imagine are being under intimidated by “other people"… theories and psycho babble-whilst ignoramus’s shaming the perpetrator and so on, and on and on… Who gives a crap how or when or why. The perpetrator of this particular crime is now kind of like an animal we will be keeping in a zoo for academics to be curios about. And thats about it.

    Right, so I’m in a place called Bhavnagar. This is a small city in the state of Gujarat. Gujarat isn’t isn’t like New Zealand – sorry, I’m stating the obvious I’m aware. Possession of alcohol is illegal in Gujarat for example. Some of the victims of the Christchurch attack where and are Gujarat people.

    I can post some photo essays here, if thats not inappropriate at this stage. It might help build a more complete picture of what the offender did/intended to do. He killed innocent men women and children with the intent of inciting the further destruction of peoples he had no ability to empathise with.

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4310 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    It does seem racist, but proponents would argue there’s nothing wrong with valuing a future for your (ethnic) children

    No Buts about it, its racist, supremacist, bigoted, elitist. And then theres the education bribery fiasco in the US, if you wonder what lengths parents will go to.

    Whats happening in Australia with the PM Scott Morrison a shadow cabinet meeting in 2010 accusations and angry counter claims about stoking fear of muslims to win elections?
    I doubt solutions can be found politically to anything anymore, mainly because many politicians are compromised individuals and the frames of reference they use to think about the people/populations they are supposed to represent are woefully inadequate and totally impersonal. PM Ardern and few others, exceptions.
    Is pinhead dancing a thing now Hilton?

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1881 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    Faced with something unimaginably horrific and outside our immediate control, it's a very human response to attempt to control something, ANYTHING, in our surroundings, regardless of its level of impact or relevance. Hence we reliably get arguments about names, tone policing, nitpicking over intended/received meanings of phrases. I'm not saying it's unproductive (symbols do have some relevance, how we conceive of a concerted future together is important) ... but sometimes you have to ask, is it actually worth expending so much effort on the symbol rather than the substance? Rather than, say, trusting that others are genuinely empathetic, genuinely trying to communicate in good faith, and being willing to overlook perceived missteps?

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1886 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    a future for your (ethnic) children

    White, always white.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to steven crawford,

    I can post some photo essays here,

    I'd be interested, (maybe on a Capture thread might be better though) Gujarat sounds like a fascinating and ancient place - I believe there are Indus Valley / Harappan civilisation sites there and you'd be interested in the boatbuilding right on the shore - but it's a big region - enjoy.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7887 posts Report Reply

  • Neil,

    Mulling over the free speech issue I’m not very clear about how our concepts of influence work.

    The men responsible for these acts of terror weren’t just exposed on the internet to hateful like minds they were also exposed – like all of us – to a far greater amount of messages of liberal tolerance.

    So why do a small number of men choose one set of angry messages from a small group of people and are immune to everything else?

    On the whole I agree with Pinker that liberal values have won out to a large degree and people are much better off for that. But despite all the positive work by many there still appears to be a very strong hold out impervious to that message. And not just impervious but actively hostile.

    There’s something perhaps that predisposes some men to this sort of messaging.

    Since Nov 2016 • 351 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    That "vile, anti-Islamic rants" were posted on Whale Oil doesn't surprise me. The fact that some of them came from a "senior doctor" does.

    Doctor stood down after anti-Muslim comments posted

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1385 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    The Ray White franchise in Blockhouse Bay has just sacked husband and wife agents Paul and Kathryn Davie after anti-muslim Facebook posts from the pair were flagged by a member of the public.

    Interestingly, Paul Davie stood as a candidate for the Conservative Party in New Lynn last election.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1385 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Neil,

    The men responsible for these acts of terror weren’t just exposed on the internet to hateful like minds they were also exposed – like all of us – to a far greater amount of messages of liberal tolerance.

    So, I don’t really know the answer to this, but I’ve been pondering the dynamics in my own family.

    I have three much older half-brothers. We were all raised by my mum, who was a Fucking Saint. ONE of my brothers is a Massive Racist. One. And I’ve often wondered how he could grow up in much the same home environment I did, and be like that.

    Part of the answer, I think, is that he was, because of his age, more influenced by my father than I was. My dad was a Massive Racist. (He was born in 1935 and raised in rural Queensland.)

    But another part of the reason, I think, was my sainted mother’s rule about Not Making Waves. So when I argued with my brother, growing up, I got told off for making trouble. I was taught that when someone says something vile in front of you, you do nothing. When they were both at my house when my kids were small and I showed Mum a video of her grandson’s class doing a song and he said, “Look at all the [racial slurs]!” she did nothing. She said nothing. And because I was a grown-up, I could say, “I don’t want that language around my kids, shut up or get out of my house.”

    I don’t know why he grew up racist and I didn’t. But I do know my mum was wrong. Shut up or get out of my house.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4650 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Armstrong,

    IMHO it is a very secular reaction to hate on racists. Compassion and forgiveness is the order of the day in typical Christian and Muslim households. Calling them out is one thing, shutting them down seems like quite the opposite. Hate fueled slurs such as say dummkopf does not make the world a better place..

    New Zealand • Since Jan 2015 • 41 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Neil,

    So why do a small number of men choose one set of angry messages from a small group of people and are immune to everything else?

    I dont want to diminish anybody but the reasons why are all very obvious if you take a critical look at the direction our societies have gone(I dont want to say progressed because Im not sure we have improved) over the past half century.
    The emphasis has been on material progress in the first world while everything that didnt serve that has been denigrated or sidelined. We let the businessmen/financiers set the direction a huge mistake. IMO. The cracks widened and people fell into who knows what.

    Even tho liberal messaging was pushed in the wider society thru the media and from the now business fronted leftovers of social institutions of schools, health and welfare it didnt match what was happening to many people. And I would say resentments grew as traditional roles became harder and harder to understand yet we were just expected to know.
    Yes our societies were starting to break apart, but we were all just expected to smile and carry on take on heavier workloads, less pay, increasing and changing populations and neglected yet more expensive social institutions. A recipe for disaster.
    And a group of disaffected men (Im not going to speculate on numbers) could go off on a hideous tangent and no one would know until it was too late, and had inflicted suffering on people based on their distorted view of who caused it all, often helped along by vote seeking politicians and their rhetoric.
    Im not sympathetic to his views in any way, Jordan Peterson has pointed this out but his solutions are just as crazy as the cause of it all.

    And yes what Emma said. Some are more likely to take on the racism of their parents than others and if it is left unchallenged it becomes who they are.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1881 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank, in reply to Emma Hart,

    I empathise totally - would've done the same in your shoes. Spent my whole life conscience-driven, adopting moral stands contrary to social convention, usually as a minority of one. That why I nowadays have to criticise leftists who use hate speech while criticising rightists who do the same...

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Simon Armstrong,

    shutting them down

    Nobody is entitled to a megaphone. Society negotiates access.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19683 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Alfie,

    That “vile, anti-Islamic rants” were posted on Whale Oil doesn’t surprise me. The fact that some of them came from a “senior doctor” does.

    I recall the guy from right-wing blog comments years ago. He seemed one of the more rational ones at the time.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilton Wells,

    Your assumption re: my empathy for those affected in your reply Russell is actually a great exemplar of you lacking empathy, by inexplicably levelling this at me for questioning you (and you alone) on your comments.

    Hard to see how you felt like it was ok to assume I had no empathy towards schoolmates of victims affected by the attacks just because I thought you were inaccurate and loose with your choice of words.

    I didn't say that. I pointed out that the hurt from this spreads wide.

    But I honestly don't see why you needed to write a lengthy comment reiterating how hurt you are.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22749 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    I find that I'm getting increasingly angry at this sudden discovery of far-right bigotry on blogs, social media etc. Gosh, who knew?

    Anybody who f***ing wanted to know, that's who.

    Sack real estate agents if it makes you feel cleansed, but let's not pretend we are changing anything, if there is simply a 'decent interval' (a month? a fortnight?) before all the enablers are being quoted as "political commentators", "centre-right bloggers", your friendly panelists on the AM show, Newstalk ZB and the rest.

    If the media want to hear from Farrar, Brash, Slater and their ilk, then invite them on to be interviewed and challenged for what they do, not as wise counsel to be respectfully consulted.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    I have just stumbled upon a homegeown Facebook cesspit - run by one Vinny Eastwood - How does one get this in front of the police - he admits to watching, downloading and sharing the mosque attack video - then says he deleted it only because he wouldn't do well in prison - - he is claiming to some US podcast that it was a false flag attack, orchestrated to force gun control on NZ and beyond - the names of all his fan boys and girls and their vile comments should be noted and followed up on.
    I won't link to it - but I'm sure it's very easily discoverable for legal purposes.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7887 posts Report Reply

  • Neil, in reply to andin,

    Yes our societies were starting to break apart, but we were all just expected to smile and carry on take on heavier workloads, less pay, increasing and changing populations and neglected yet more expensive social institutions. A recipe for disaster.

    Although people like Brevik and the Christchurch terrorist didn’t have hard lives, they had no personal reason to feel dispossess but for some reason developed elaborate theories of cultural dispossession.

    Whereas there are people who have indeed come from catastrophic society breakdown and suffered extraordinary trauma plus have had to find refuge in a very different society who don’t wind up killers.

    Since Nov 2016 • 351 posts Report Reply

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