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Speaker: A Disorderly Brexit

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  • simon g, in reply to Alfie,

    Not that simple, Alfie. Membership of what?

    It's like people commenting on the Standard or Daily Blog telling Labour what to do. The party probably shouldn't take much advice from Mana.

    Take a good look at those protest placards. In short: Socialist Worker isn't Labour, and London Labour isn't UK Labour. Different worlds.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1319 posts Report Reply

  • simon g, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    I think UKIP will do fine if there's a whiff of "betrayal". And in less than a week, it sounds like there will be. Immigration Set to Continue Shock!

    A real irony here - both the illiberal right and the uncompromising left are feeding their own Dolchstosslegende.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1319 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Arron Banks, a big funder of UKIP, is apparently working on the next party - the one to either replace, or for UKIP to morph into.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to simon g,

    I doubt that Corbyn's lost the support of 80,000 Labour members in ten months. That's how big his majority is - not against his nearest rival, but the total of all three rivals he beat in 2015.

    He was 80,000 ahead twelve months ago, when the membership resoundingly rejected the PLP-friendly candidates. Now the PLP have plunged the party into this mess, how amenable do you think the members will be to them?

    There's a reason Angela Eagle didn't announce her challenge yesterday - she's hoping Corbyn goes. There's also the uncomfortable fact of her vote for Iraq, which will hamstring her come the Chilcot Report next week. They're looking at Owen Smith as a replacement, but nobody can agree on who it should be.

    They can't have both because of that 80,000 majority. The PLP, trying to get Corbyn to stand down for the sake of party unity, can't decide on a candidate to challenge him. The irony is, well, delicious.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2929 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    The Portland Communications coordinated Blairite coup looks like it will collapse. The key problem for the PLP Blairite majority is they know they would almost all lose their seats if they stood as some sort of new, not-as-bad-as-whoever-is-running-the-Tories Peter Dunne clones, so for all thier air of superiority they know they need the Labour logo more than Labour needs them.

    Therefore the plan was to use a carefully orchestrated assault to bully Corbyn out within 48 hours by ganging up on him in what was an extraordinary display of vicious class solidarity, drip feeding resignations and subjecting Corbyn to vile personal abuse. Nothing is quite so hysterical, whiny and nasty as entitled middle class troughers having thier access to publicly funded free swill removed, especially when the removing is done by their class inferiors. In normal times and against a normal politician this coup would have worked. But Corbyn has always been an isolated dogmatist, and he hung tough for the crucial window of time to allow his base support to mobilize. Now we are witnessing an extraordinary (extraordinary is the only word to use a lot of the time just now) counter-attack that is leaving the British PLP and it cheerleaders in the liberal press completely isolated. The Blairite PLPs only hope is Corbyn finally cracks and resigns. 60,000 new Labour members in a week. The threat from Angela Eagles electorate committee to de-select her. The grass roots support for Corbyn is rock solid. Once Chilcott is released, discrediting the entire pro-war PLP, and then the party conference in September which under Corbyn will certainly wrest large areas of political and policy control away from the PLP, the Blairite s will be finished. I expect them to abandon Labour en-masse in 2017 if they can’t oust Corbyn, and try and destroy Labour as they do it.

    The amazing thing about the Brexit vote is how the venal Oxbridge establishment – seemingly impervious and untouchable – collapsed like a house of card after just one democratic contact with the views of the ignored. Revolutions unimaginable until inevitable indeed! The decadence of the British state is now starkly revealed. The attack on Corbyn was actually the first strike of a desperate elites attempt to re-establish the status quo. Expect more as the financial and political class seeks to recover from it’s brief encounter with the kryptonite of democracy.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2210 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    And while all this bloodlust unfolds, Corbyn is away at the Somme. That's poetry :)

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2090 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    If it were not for the fact that the UK has a FFP voting system, and if it were not for the fact it is still a constitutional monarcy, it could well be heading into territory that was the "normal" in the so called former "Weimar Republic".

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Marc C,

    in the so called former "Weimar Republic".

    Meanwhile, in Austria.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Rich Lock,

    Meanwhile, in Austria.

    That's... a little scary...

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2929 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to simon g,

    Not that simple, Alfie. Membership of what?

    Grassroots Labour supporters, Simon. There are lots of them, they're not happy with the PLP coup and they're flexing their democratic options. This feels like the beginning of a revolution. Hopefully.

    Can the Tories really support Gove? Ignoring his total lack of charisma for a moment, replacing a pigfucker with a backstabber doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me. "Prime Minister Judas" doesn't have much of a ring about it.

    That leaves Theresa May for the Tories and she doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Not only did she support the Iraq war, but she reminds me a lot of Margaret Thatcher. While I can see that similarity appealing to some Tories -- four years of Thatcherism-on-steroids -- it scares me shitless.

    My ideal scenario would involve a new general election and Corbyn sweeping into power with a revitalised and probably younger cabinet.

    We live in interesting times.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1381 posts Report Reply

  • simon g, in reply to Alfie,

    Some are "grassroots Labour supporters". Some aren't. There's plenty of evidence on that there internet to demonstrate that these aren't all salt-of-the-earth Labour folks, wanting to build a coalition to win (and Labour have never won without that coalition, and dare I say, never will). The parallels with 1983 have been drawn before, and they are valid. 18 years in opposition turned enemies of Kinnock into friends of Blair. Some victory.

    Your ideal scenario will never happen, I'm afraid. When Corbyn's biggest ally (John McDonnell) talks about immigration the way he did yesterday, it is only a matter of time before he becomes the next "traitor", in the eyes of those same protestors.

    If there is an early election, prior to Brexit, where will Corbyn/McDonnell stand? For or against the EU? Fighting for the UK or letting it dissolve? I don't know, but the British voters will want to.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1319 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to simon g,

    Labour have never won without that coalition, and dare I say, never will

    Never? Only if you conveniently overlook 1997, 2001 and 2005. Labour won an outright majority in all three of those elections, albeit under Blair.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1381 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    As a person living in NZ with close connection to continental Europe, I think it is about time to tell the Brits to get stuffed, go and take your hike and see how you get on. We have observed for so many years, how the British governments have sought a special role again and again and again, and never really wanted to be a full part of Europe, this is the divorce you in your majority wanted, you got it, explain it to the people within your nation, why and how. The rest will be done, you will NOT get new terms and conditions before the expiry of your membership, that is the legal situation. This I primarily address to British governments, particularly the present disorderly one, but the people chose to take part in the bizarre referendum where many lies were common arguments that were used, pro and contra. Sort your mess out, thank you. Good luck and get stuffed, most of Europe, who care, had quite enough of British special roles and narcissism. Get over the loss of your Empire and your losses elsewhere, forget also your United Kingdom.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    Ever so fitting, some Brits have brains and are outspoken at the same time:

    Most seem to live in exile.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    Meanwhile USA, what side are you on?

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    As for the rest of Brexit, we all know that the following played a role too, and honestly, I and others had quite enough of the wrong tolerance of urban liberals, which has destroyed the votability of left parties.

    [DELETED. PLEASE DON'T POST ISLAMIC STATE VIDEOS HERE. RB]

    I know this is not what was voted on or against, but there is a perception among people, that certain tolerances have been abused and exploited, and we have extremists take advantage of it, and we get now the worst of the worse, that is maybe perception, but more than that. I am in hindsight not at all surprised about the British Exit vote.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • Marc C,

    As for the above comments, I think I have displayed perfectly why Labour or even Greens are un-voteable, indeed I consider, despite huge reservations, to for the first time to vote for NZ First, aghast really. Who would fall for this continuum and abject failure of a defunct government, that serves only its self interest.

    Akl • Since Oct 2012 • 437 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    If your answer to racism, neglect of other cultures and abandonment of support for basic human rights is NZFirst, you really don't understand the question.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2929 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe,

    It is rather amusing to see Marc put it on the liberal class for not intervening.

    ISIS wouldn't have existed without Blair's delightful little Iraq adventure with his mate George. Blair, in particular, is that urban liberal class you now criticise for not intervening. I suppose there's a 'you break it, you fix it' here, but nailing to the liberal classes is pretty damn ironic given there's been a Conservative Govt in the UK for the last six years now, National in NZ and Liberals in Aussie - those damn liberals not letting them go and intervene.

    And intervene how exactly? What's the plan to beat ISIS and extremists on the ground, Marc? Or is this one of those 'we should tell them to do it and they should work out how' sort of ideas - like, perhaps, Brexit?

    You put an awful lot of faith in the political class to be able to work out a way to solve the problems in the middle east, problems they couldn't solve when everything was reasonably stable there.

    But it's quite clear that what was relatively simple and contained about thirteen years ago has now become a lot more complex, chaotic and much harder to intervene in.

    You're right, in a perverse way. This is the fault of urban liberals, like Blair. But for getting in there in the first place without any idea about what to do next. That's why there's no appetite for it from politicians or voters - they've had thirteen years of repercussions from that ever so traditional lie from a politician, 'Don't worry, this will be a short war and it'll not come back to haunt us at all'.

    Does 'something' need to be done in the Middle East? Yes. Are western democracies the right people for the job? History, recent and further back, indicates no. Not just no. Hell no. We've only made it worse.

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Marc C,

    the wrong tolerance of urban liberals

    If you're looking for problematic tolerance, how about voters going along with a century of European and American interference in the Middle East? Extremism does not happen in a vacuum.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19680 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank,

    The situation in Iraq derives from the sunni/shia divide, more then a millennia of dualist sectarian culture-polarising, makes ulster folk seem enlightened and peaceful in comparison. The idea that westerners could help was always ridiculous.

    Also, democracy only takes root in nations where people are sufficiently evolved. Trying to enforce it on cultures locked into pathological vioence is idiocy.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

  • John Palethorpe, in reply to Dennis Frank,

    So, have you always been a racist twerp or did you take evening classes?

    Auckland • Since May 2015 • 83 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    nations where people are sufficiently evolved.

    Which nations?

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1881 posts Report Reply

  • Dennis Frank,

    The nations where people evolved sufficiently are those that adopted democracy. The definition google offers for racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

    As you can see, John, you are misapplying the term. I referred to nations, not races.

    New Zealand • Since Jun 2016 • 292 posts Report Reply

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