Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Does My Mortgage Look Like a Slag in This?

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  • JoJo,

    <quote>by people who have no intention to harrass her.<quote>

    Then why don't they leave her the fuck alone?

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 95 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Using the toilets later, someone else grabbed my crotch and ran off snickering.

    Did you get it back?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4650 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    teh interhosen

    The internet is pants.

    roflnui

    And the interhosen always gets its interpanties in a twist.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5420 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    Would that be the Hotel Babylon..?.

    More like, I believe that boorish behaviour by male and female patrons in a bar is mostly in the pursuit of happiness and in the wish to provide some happiness to another. If into this context someone enters (and like 3410 portrays it is almost always a woman) who holds boorish sexual advances to be harrassing she will be harrassed, by people who have no intention to harrass her. So yes her unhappiness is more than offset by people who have happily congregated in the bar for the purpose of boorish sexual pursuit.

    I think you may be mistaking premises
    licensed to sell liquor and entertain
    with premises in which to be licentious...
    ...different bylaws and signage apply.

    and let's define harass
    (for that is how it is is spelt.
    Embarrass has 2 Rs
    - a Freudian slip perhaps):

    subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation
    and
    make repeated small-scale attacks on

    and harassed:

    feeling or looking strained by having too many demands made on one

    Etymologically:

    Early 17th cent.: from French harasser, from harer ‘set a dog on,’ from Germanic hare,
    a cry urging a dog to attack.

    Thesaurus:

    persecute, intimidate, hound, harry, plague, torment, bully, bedevil; pester, bother, worry, disturb, trouble, provoke, stress; informal hassle, bug, ride, give someone a hard time, get on someone's case.

    Gosh - exemplary behaviour in the pursuit of happiness then.

    I feel an inflated sense of entitlement
    and a problem with commodification may be at the heart of the problem.

    I thought the Boor War was over...

    yrs convivially
    Lord Numb
    of the opi(nion)ated masses...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7889 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    So, a bar is a place to be okay to grope and harass and bother a woman after she has made it clear that she's not interested?

    No.

    It is a bar, so lets assume there is more than one guy. She makes it clear to the first guy, 2nd guy, 3rd, 4th...18th...that she is just out for a good fun night with friends, she tells every guy to go away and each guy complies.

    According to everybodyelses working definition of harrasment she is catergorically NOT being harrassed. She makes it clear she is not interested and the guy leaves, so therefore no harrasment.

    I however think that after say the 17th proposition based on the intrinsic appeal of blowing a drunk stranger she might be feeling harrassed. Yet I (agreeing with everybodyelse) also think that no harrassment has occured.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Ian, you win the internet.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Did you get it back?

    Is anyone else singing King Missile's 'Detachable Penis'?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Nope, I was worried about penis theft.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    guys often can't really comprehend the experience

    A few years ago I started noticing certain shared behavioural traits in (mostly) young women, out and about in public spaces on weekend evenings (fri-sat), usually by themselves, usually in transit from A to B. I'm not talking late-late, more like 6-7 in the evening.

    These behavioural traits would be along the lines of: crossed arms, downcast eyes, slightly worried expression, and giving a (very) wide berth to any groups of lads who were obviously dressed up and out and about for a night on the town.

    To me, packs of tipsy or drunk blokes are usually nothing more than a minor annoyance, and very occasionally, but not usually, a bit intimidating.

    But once I noticed how women react to them, it did get me thinking. And once you notice that sort of behaviour, it's very hard to 'un-notice' it. And you start seeing it everywhere, in all sorts of different locations, at all sorts of different times of day and night.

    I find it a bit sad that we live in a society where there is a sort of omnipresent background hum of intimidatory vibes which around 50% of the population experience nearly all the time, which just happens to ratchet up sharply in certain areas at certain times (e.g. town centres late in the evening).

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Ian MacKay,

    Well. I have read everything on this post. At the simplist my proposition is that the clothes we wear, the manners you show, the way you speak do send signals to those you meet. I am baffled as to why this causes angry response.
    I have never harassed a woman but have had friendly conversations with stangers men and women. I have never been told "No" because the question was never asked or implied. I do understand that some women are treated badly in this regard, and that is of course very wrong. Never sugested that nasty people were justified in their aggresive attack.

    Bleheim • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • James Francis,

    Mildly philosophical question.

    Is this sort of behaviour worse in New Zealand? I suspect it's (sadly) universal. But for the better-travelled members of PA, are there places or societies around the world where you're less likely to be harassed if you're a woman or where you're safer?

    Just curious.

    St John's, Newfoundland • Since Nov 2006 • 121 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    In Italy I think it's far worse, and my partner could tell you that looking foreign made it worser - she was accosted, stared at etc. all the bloody time. Which alongside the observation that women used get an even harder time in the past is the reason why I don't buy the "men are animals" line. Surely we're the same species regardless of nationality and year of birth?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • James Francis,

    I was cautiously inching my way towards the thesis that perhaps in New Zealand it's a product of the drinking culture but, yes, I think that's something destined for the rubbish bin.

    St John's, Newfoundland • Since Nov 2006 • 121 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    At the simplist my proposition is that the clothes we wear, the manners you show, the way you speak do send signals to those you meet. I am baffled as to why this causes angry response.

    But the way some men are interpreting the signal is: 'I am available. Please crudely proposition me'.

    Whereas it's a little odd that most women don't actually think that's the signal they sent.

    So whose behaviour needs addressing?

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    I was cautiously inching my way towards the thesis that perhaps in New Zealand it's a product of the drinking culture but, yes, I think that's something destined for the rubbish bin.

    Possibly this behaviour is expressed more in NZ when people are drunk, because of the inhibition-lowering qualities of alcohol? But generally that only allows expression of what was already there, so I don't think it's the entire answer.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Ian MacKay,

    Rich. Do you see that it is not my intent to connect the dress message as an excuse to "attack" women, or men? I never said that.
    Lucy: A long time ago drink drivers were excused by the court because they were drunk at the time???? It is true that agressive angry people are much worse when there is alcohol or some drugs involved. Not an excuse.

    Bleheim • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Rich. Do you see that it is not my intent to connect the dress message as an excuse to "attack" women, or men? I never said that.

    Ian: yes, totally. I didn't think I said anything that suggested that you did, though?

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    are there places or societies around the world where you're less likely to be harassed if you're a woman or where you're safer?

    I'm going to go way back to something Tess said on page one:

    I only realised how wonderful and safe our university social group was as I have gotten older and seen a wider slice of life. Women could dress as they chose and if there was unwanted attention it was stomped on hard and fast. The fault of unwanted attention is soley on the person giving it.

    We had a little sub-culture where women were almost NEVER harassed. When it did happen, the perpetrators were (figuratively) slapped down hard and fast - and that wasn't considered the responsibility of the person on the receiving end, but of everyone who witnessed it. Think about the other people on Megan's ferry, or in Deborah's church.

    And the women dressed as they damn well pleased, often in ways that would apparently give Rebecca MacFie a heart attack.It worked I think in part because it wasn't considered okay to blame the women.

    It was very different from the Kiwi culture I had come from in my teenage years, where you didn't mess with someone else's missus, but other women were pretty much fair game.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4650 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    Did you get it back?

    Yeah. APB still firmly attached, like an angry limpet.
    Lucky, 'cos a trip to Benin for a magical replacement sounds... fraught.
    [We were denied visas to Benin in '88 on the grounds that New Zealand was a racist country. But in next-door Lome there was a busy 'voodoo market' where dried (animal) penises were just another commodity. I'm sure there were pickled APBs there, too.]

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2091 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    are there places or societies around the world where you're less likely to be harassed if you're a woman or where you're safer?

    The Muslim countries I've experienced have varied widely. But when The Law says you have to be covered, on the street, head to toe... or potentially be caned- not a joke. Not ok to be drunk in Dubai- but a drunken woman on the street? You're not safe from the law.
    In Morrocco, my partner and I had very different experiences- not so much of safety, but qualitatively different. Alcohol was legal, but frowned on (drunken Morrocans tended to have a chip on both shoulders. Hashish was illegal, but socially acceptable- odd, really) and apart from my partner, I never saw a woman in a bar. Maybe different now, or in the big cities.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2091 posts Report Reply

  • George Darroch,

    Excuse my ignorance, what is APB? I know a few things, and can think of a few more, but none of them seem to fit.

    WLG • Since Nov 2006 • 2264 posts Report Reply

  • Karen White,

    animalistic penis-brains

    back on page 1 - thanks Danielle!

    Now - off to Villa Maria estate for a wine in the sun. One of the very few good things about working near AKL airport

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 79 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    Lucy: A long time ago drink drivers were excused by the court because they were drunk at the time???? It is true that agressive angry people are much worse when there is alcohol or some drugs involved. Not an excuse.

    Did I say it was? I was trying to suggest that maybe because men in NZ generally know that it's less societally acceptable to harass women (c.f. Giovanni's comment about Italy) but don't necessarily believe it, such behaviours might tend to emerge more when they're drunk, indicative of underlying attitudes.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Ian MacKay,

    My wife is working in the UAE and she must cover neck, arms, and dress to the ground. Those are the rules at work. They are told to be careful in the street in Abu Dahai or Al Ain when wearing more exposed skin, as this would be a signal apparently that they are loose women.

    Bleheim • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

  • Ian MacKay,

    Rich. Just checking OK?

    Bleheim • Since Nov 2006 • 498 posts Report Reply

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