Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Eat Up Your Brothelly

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  • giovanni tiso,

    But that wasn't what I asked. It was whether you'd be proud to tell everyone about it.

    Would I ever brag about a child of mine being a banker? I doubt it. I'd brag about them being happy though, no trouble at all.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7360 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Well-educated articulate sex-workers aren't exactly hard to find on the net.

    Nor are really, really stupid ones, especially ones with totally drug addled minds. These are the career prostitutes, rather than the stepping stone ones.

    Yes. I've heard alarming things about about one well-known Auckland establishment keeping its staff on P -- handily meaning they (a) need money all the time, and (b) aren't in a mental or emotional state to make good choices.

    I think I'm correct in supposing that that sort of scenario has become considerably less likely to occur since law reform.

    I'm not in the market for sexual services, but it does seem that those owner-operated suburban brothels would offer a better chance of a mutually respectful exchange of money and services. Apart from anything else, I'd guess that CBD brothels would get a higher proportion of customers who fall into the "drunken fuckwit" category.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18876 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    I think I'm correct in supposing that that sort of scenario has become considerably less likely to occur since law reform.

    Indeed -- and I'm pretty sure you've been around the media long enough that you've plenty of (off the record) stories to tell about sociopathic bosses who got off on manipulating fragile employees. (Actually, addictive psychoactive drugs in the coffee would explain a lot about the Herald.) There's going to be mad, bad and dangerous to know oxygen thieves in any occupation.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11988 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Yes. I've heard alarming things about about one well-known Auckland establishment keeping its staff on P -- handily meaning they (a) need money all the time, and (b) aren't in a mental or emotional state to make good choices.

    They're not necessarily going to be the least bit unwilling about it all, either. People who like P, really like it. And if they have to root like crack-hos to get it, root they will. They might really love it, even. I've heard of that, one particular girl who was always trying to get my "source of all this sordid knowledge" on the bake, because that was her idea of fun. He hated that, but was perfectly happy with her crazy arsed antics in bed.

    I'm not in the market for sexual services, but it does seem that those owner-operated suburban brothels would offer a better chance of a mutually respectful exchange of money and services

    She was an owner-operator, btw. It's not necessarily a choice of empowerment, it might also be the best way to eke out a living after you've been kicked out of every brothel in town because you're too old and look like too much of a junkie. They are by far the cheapest brothels, I believe $50 is not an uncommon rate. Doesn't really sound nearly so wonderful, especially when you consider that's only enough for half a point of P, barely enough for the next few hours for a hardcore junkie.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8519 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    I'd brag about them being happy though, no trouble at all.

    Yes. I wouldn't tell anyone if mine were a banker. Hell, it's embarrassing enough having family that has a Realtor!

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6190 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Yes. I wouldn't tell anyone if mine were a banker. Hell, it's embarrassing enough having family that has a Realtor!

    Heh, OK, so the nation doesn't need any more bankers, either. But they should be allowed, and helped to get out of it if that's what they want. I saved my wife from a life of banking. She used to do it all, withdrawals, deposits, transfers, but she's put all that behind her for the kids' sakes. I have, I shamefully admit, abused her accounting services, getting her to do stuff with files I just wouldn't do myself. But she loves it. Or she just grins and bears it - what do I care?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8519 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    But she loves it. Or she just grins and bears it - what do I care?

    See, can be the same in all walks of life. ;)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6190 posts Report Reply

  • chris,

    中国 • Since Jan 2010 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    Hmmm... instead of worrying about whether you would happily tell people that your child is a sex worker or a banker, try this thought experiment.

    One of the requirements for being able to receive the unemployment benefit is that you are trying to find work. WINZ will even help you to find work. If you turn down a job that is offered to you, your benefit may be cut off.

    Should WINZ require people to be sex workers? It's legal, after all.

    Manawatu City • Since Nov 2006 • 1310 posts Report Reply

  • Stewart,

    Himself on a bike... wait till Paula Bennett gets hold of that thought!

    Te Ika A Maui - Waitakere… • Since Oct 2008 • 572 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Should WINZ require people to be sex workers? It's legal, after all.

    Ah, yes... I remember having a rather terse conversation with a WINZ case worker about how putting a newly-sober alcoholic to work in a pub might not work well for anyone. :)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11988 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Should WINZ require people to be sex workers? It's legal, after all.

    Have you known me to agree with the proposition that WINZ should require people to do work that they don't want to do?

    But you know, there are a lot of other jobs that are there for the taking but WINZ doesn't require you to do. How about joining the police force, or the army?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7360 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I must say I'm reaching perilous levels of discomfort about the tone of this conversation. Replace prostitute with gay, if you want to test your tolerance. How would you react if somebody said here, okay, you might be fine with your child being gay, but would you brag about it with your friends? Or, yes, it might be okay to have gay relations, but should people be required to?

    Nobody is saying that being a prostitute is a profession that is for everyone, nor that there isn't a great deal of exploitation in that profession. No doubt there is a tiny minority of men and women for whom it would be desirable, and fewer still that could make it work for them. But society's unhealthy attitude to sex notwithstanding, that doesn't reflect badly on them.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7360 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg,

    Nobody is saying that being a prostitute is a profession that is for everyone, nor that there isn't a great deal of exploitation in that profession. No doubt there is a tiny minority of men and women for whom it would be desirable, and fewer still that could make it work for them. But society's unhealthy attitude to sex notwithstanding, that doesn't reflect badly on them.

    Totally agree. I raised my objection to what I perceived as being "Yay, women can be johns too!". Equality? Sure, but if anyone is reflected badly upon by sex trade it's the buyer - not the seller (IMHO).

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 796 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Again: why? There can't possibly be a product that is okay to sell but not to buy, unless somehow you believe that wanting the product in itself is bad. It doesn't make any sense. There are people who for a variety of reasons can use and in fact enjoy the companionship (they haven't forgotten how to wank, you know.) There are people who are happy to provide it. What's the problem with either side of that equation?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7360 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    What's the problem with either side of that equation?

    Absolutely nothing! Well said Gio.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6190 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg,

    I see it as a trade based on a position of power that favours the buyer because s/he has money. And yes, that in itself probably applies to dentists as well.

    But I don't see dentists standing around on K Road soliciting work every morning as I walk to work. I see some of the most vulnerable and desperate women (mostly) in society. Women that appear to have little other choice. And I see buyers as men (mostly) who are taking advantage of this situation.

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 796 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Equality? Sure, but ...

    I was in Bunnings recently with my man. At the till, I pulled out my money, the check out girl commented with a smile " That's good of you to pay, he should really" I commented " Why? Don't you like being equal in society? Why should he have to pay?" She then said "Oh yeah, never thought of it like that" I responded, "well let's hope you do in your future."
    The guy at the next till said "Yeah". Then they both giggled.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6190 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    But society's unhealthy attitude to sex notwithstanding, that doesn't reflect badly on them.

    I don't think it's a given that feeling prostitution is an undesirable outcome for people is an unhealthy attitude to sex. That's like saying that feeling stink about them working in a coal mine for peanuts is an unhealthy attitude to work. Or that being ashamed to have a mad gambler for offspring is an unhealthy attitude to gambling. Or that feeling bitter on your son for being a pisshead is an unhealthily attitude to alcohol. You can tolerate something whilst still disliking it heartily and wanting to take steps to lessen it's impact on society.

    It's not like being gay, which doesn't sound like something people choose, and the denial of which is a virtual guarantee of lifelong unhappiness. Being denied to work in a whorehouse is something you'd probably get over.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8519 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Replace prostitute with gay, if you want to test your tolerance. How would you react if somebody said here, okay, you might be fine with your child being gay, but would you brag about it with your friends? Or, yes, it might be okay to have gay relations, but should people be required to?

    I'm not sure if that is a useful equivalence. We are talking about people choosing to take up sex work, which is a bit different from being something - such as gay.

    I think your challenge stands by itself. We as a society are uncomfortable with sex-work as anything that has status or is desirable. Rightly or wrongly, even many of the most liberal amongst us wouldn't be putting that down as occupations for ourselves or those we care about. I wonder if any research has been done as to whether the law reforms have caused that to change over the past decade or so?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6172 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    That's like saying that feeling stink about them working in a coal mine for peanuts is an unhealthy attitude to work. Or that being ashamed to have a mad gambler for offspring is an unhealthy attitude to gambling.

    I know you're an intelligent person, so would you care to try to argue honestly? By equating obviously undesirable job situations with all forms of prostitution and using expressions like "whorehouse" and "sucking cock" to describe it, you're painting a very specific and narrow image of the profession. Is that how you'd characterise what Lisa Lewis does? I don't think so. Are Lisa Lewis' parents' proud of her success, or brag about it with their friends? I honestly don't know. I don't much care, it's not really what it's about, you're the one who introduced the idea that it can be a good profession only if society finds it so, whilst at the same time reducing it to your (and much of society's) extremely narrow view of it.

    Emma has linked on this thread and in the past to the writings of sex workers whose experiences diverge greatly from the one you're trying to paint here. You could do the decent thing and acknowledge that they exist and that their experience is in fact valid. Or not, it's really up to you.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7360 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    This all comes down to our pesky chastity orbs again, doesn't it?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3655 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I suspect so.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7360 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg,

    Emma has linked on this thread and in the past to the writings of sex workers whose experiences diverge greatly from the one you're trying to paint here.

    Yes, I read those and I'm happy to acknowledge that those experiences are valid. They just don't tally with what I see on a daily basis. I don't know how representative those blogged experiences are.

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 796 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    PS, from way back on page two:

    The women who strip are also usually the ones with dancer-esque bodies

    You, my friend, have clearly not been entertained by the ladies of La Chatte Gentlemen's Club in Houston, Texas.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3655 posts Report Reply

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