Up Front by Emma Hart

Read Post

Up Front: Lighting the Dark

101 Responses

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 Newer→ Last

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Rich Lock,

    or more male-oriented discussion? I’ve got a few thoughts, but am wary of clogging up this thread and talking-not-listening.

    The internet is a very big place. You may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, etc...

    But seriously. You get this discussion is about men, right? And the most valuable part of it is men actively engaging with it? I appreciate that you've distinguished "talking-not-listening" from just talking, but we need men talking about this. Women, like Tess says, have always talked about it, but quietly, in corners, where men wouldn't hear.

    After you've actually listened on this topic, it's hard to shut up the next time one of your mates jokingly calls a woman a "fucking slag". But I reckon it's even harder after you've actually engaged on this topic, listened and responded.

    To be crystal clear, no thread of mine has ever been a place where men aren't welcome to speak, and I'm not going to start now. There are women-only spaces for people who find that too uncomfortable. Likewise, whatever discussion you want is out there somewhere, if this is too uncomfortable.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4378 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings,

    What is blowing my mind at the moment, is how many things I have not recognised as problematic because, at the time, I saw them as normal and unremarkable.

    Like, as a teen, engaging in intense, romantic, hand-holding because that was the best way to stop my date touching where I didn't want him to and a verbal "no" would lead to belittling and persuasion.

    Like, having agreed, in principle, that (PIV) sex might be a thing I wanted at some stage meaning that consent was, henceforth, assumed.

    Like knowing that, when the skinhead in the cafe where I was waiting for a bus invited me out back for a fuck, the only safe refusal strategy was to invoke my large, possessive, boyfriend.

    These things, and more, happened at a time when I would have cheerfully told you that, apart from that one intermediate school art teacher who liked to wind me up, I had never encountered sexism. I'm rather more aware these days but still rarely call anyone out as to do so often feels, socially if not physically, unsafe.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 706 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    And from The Herald today an obscene story about rape and murder in India with this gem.

    Health workers, police and women's rights activists say women and girls face the risk of rape and harassment when they go out into fields or bushes due to the lack of toilets in their homes.

    No. No it isn't the lack of indoor toilets that results in the men raping women to death. There is a whole other problem here that you are not mentioning.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3472 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Emma Hart,

    You get this discussion is about men, right? And the most valuable part of it is men actively engaging with it? I appreciate that you’ve distinguished “talking-not-listening” from just talking, but we need men talking about this.

    I appreciate that. I'm just a bit wary of wading in with size 11 here's-wot-I-think-right hobnails, especailly in a discussion like this. My understanding is that it can be offputting for women who would otherwise be minded to participate to have a bunch of men wading in and opinioning the place up.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2401 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    I'm going to pash you so hard the next time I see you.

    I think this deserves a dishonourable mention for missing the point. And should be highlighted.

    Because normally it's men getting hassled for saying "men get sexually assaulted too", rather than women threatening to do it.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 499 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Rich Lock,

    My understanding is that it can be offputting for women who would otherwise be minded to participate to have a bunch of men wading in and opinioning the place up.

    My understanding is that we are grown up enough to have these conversations, which deal to myths and taboo.

    I’ve been told on occasion by other men, that I have big nuts. This loosely translated, means that I am tenacious. As endearing as it’s intended, I still don’t like what that conjures. But It’s hard to even imagine how to challenge being spoken to like that, because its meant as a complement, it’s culturally entrenched and not a big deal.

    So, what Emma is asking, is that we do Imagine how we can stand up to derogatory and objectifying attitudes towards women, by men.
    That is what I think is what it’s all about. It’s about learning to empathize with these experiences being shared and learning to act appropriately on that empathy.
    As difficult as that is.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2807 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Moz,

    I’m going to pash you so hard the next time I see you.

    I think this deserves a dishonourable mention for missing the point. And should be highlighted.

    Because normally it’s men getting hassled for saying “men get sexually assaulted too”, rather than women threatening to do it.

    Moz, you're missing the point. Jackie and Craig are friends, and Jackie was expressing her affection. No sexual assault was intended or should be inferred.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3494 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Moz -

    Thanks for having my back there, but Lilith is on the button. Jackie is a very good friend of mine, and if I thought she was out of order I've certain no inhibitions about saying so -- and because PAS is a space where "don't be a dick" is the standing house rule, I wouldn't be shy about asking Emma or Russell for a take down.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12073 posts Report Reply

  • Tess Rooney,

    I do think we need men to step up and challenge each other when women are objectified. In a perfect world men would listen to women, but this isn't a perfect world and let's be honest, men are going to have more impact with men who are happy to say "fwooor, look at the t**s on that b***h".

    Since May 2009 • 257 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Tess Rooney,

    Exactly, and Emma talks a lot about why it’s really important guys do their share of the work. “Leverage you privilege” works – and not just when it comes to jamming cultures of misogyny. Just saying “dude, that shit isn’t cool” when your peer group is talking sexist (or racist or homophobic) smack? It won’t change the world, but it’s a start. You're not only implanting the idea that casual bigotry isn't socially acceptable, but you never know who's also hearing they're not alone.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12073 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Health workers, police and women’s rights activists say women and girls face the risk of rape and harassment when they go out into fields or bushes due to the lack of toilets in their homes.

    If one was being kind to the author (and I haven't read the rest of the article), one could read this as a description of where/when women are at most danger, rather than why they are at danger, i.e. "women and girls face the risk of rape and harassment when they go out into the fields or bushes. They go out into the fields or bushes due to the lack of toilets in their homes."

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 396 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Rodger never did and it worries me how many men there are like him.

    At best, Elliot Rodger sounded like a Lost Boy out of the Peter Pan universe. At worst, he was a narcissist in the vein of Clayton Weatherston.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4431 posts Report Reply

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Lucy Telfar Barnard,

    one could read this as a description of where/when women are at most danger, rather than why they are at danger,

    That was my reading of it - the situation makes it so much easier, whereas if they had proper toilets, the rapists would have to [ahem] work a bit harder. Still, to be fair to Bart, the quotation as quoted did seem to suggest the lack of toilets was the reason, not just a contributing factor.

    Beijing • Since Jan 2007 • 2190 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Lilith __,

    Moz, you're missing the point. Jackie and Craig are friends, and Jackie was expressing her affection. No sexual assault was intended or should be inferred.

    Thanks for instructing me as to how I should feel about that, I'll keep it in mind next time something I read here upsets me.

    I think it's useful to keep in mind that this forum is not a private chat area for a group of close friends, it's an open forum. In-jokes that require people to know and keep track of all the relationships between posters in order for them to be funny rather than triggering are, at best, in poor taste.

    ..... and this is why I generally stay the hell away from these discussions.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 499 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Thanks for having my back there

    You're welcome, and thanks for clearing that up.

    I wouldn't be shy about asking Emma or Russell for a take down.

    In my experience Russell is quite selective and often quite slow with his take-downs. Especially with things like this where there's ambiguity, and only one of the readings is offensive (and when his personal take is the non-offensive one).

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 499 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Moz,

    In my experience Russell is quite selective and often quite slow with his take-downs. Especially with things like this where there’s ambiguity, and only one of the readings is offensive (and when his personal take is the non-offensive one).

    I’m more likely to respond or warn than to take down or ban, that’s true. I’m also pretty swift when it’s clear to me something needs to come out.

    But honestly, there’s no ambiguity about this one. I know the people concerned and they know each other, having "met" here.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Moz,

    Thanks for instructing me as to how I should feel about that, I’ll keep it in mind next time something I read here upsets me.

    I was explaining the context. You were the one telling others how to behave.

    If you don't know the people and their comment is ambiguous, one approach is to ask the poster what they meant, rather than automatically smacking them down. PAS people are usually more than happy to explain what they mean if it's unclear.

    I think it’s useful to keep in mind that this forum is not a private chat area for a group of close friends, it’s an open forum. In-jokes that require people to know and keep track of all the relationships between posters in order for them to be funny rather than triggering are, at best, in poor taste.

    We're you. personally, triggered?

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3494 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Lilith __,

    We’re you. personally, triggered?

    If that was the case, I’m genuinely sorry about it.

    But in some respects that’s the problem with the concept of triggering. I can’t remove what is to the people involved an inoffensive bit of banter because another participant has personal reasons to be upset by it.

    Context and intent are meaningful, no matter how often people tell you they aren’t.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    That's not a problem with the concept of triggering, it's a problem with its use. The concept itself is useful and I don't think it should be dismissed.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3665 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    Moz, you weren't to know the relationship, you are correct.
    However, you will be aware of my postings. And I think I would be correct in saying I have never threatened sexual violence before.
    I can't control what you read into things, but I would have happily explained to you, had you asked.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3123 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Danielle,

    That’s not a problem with the concept of triggering, it’s a problem with its use. The concept itself is useful and I don’t think it should be dismissed.

    I wasn’t trying to dismiss it and I don’t want to minimise anyone’s experience. Given that moderation was invoked I thought I should say something. Yes, “use” is a better way of putting it than “concept”, but that's what I meant.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __,

    I was walking on the beach just now as it was getting dark. Then I became aware there was a guy behind me...and that that he had put the whole depth of the beach between us.

    When guys understand the fear women feel alone in public spaces, and communicate that. Thank you.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3494 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    It’s a good idea to say: I feel [ some sort of feeling ]

    when you said [ something ]

    because [ reason]

    and I would like you to think about that.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2807 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Lilith __,

    I was walking on the beach just now as it was getting dark. Then I became aware there was a guy behind me…and that that he had put the whole depth of the beach between us.

    I’ve told my late-night Ponsonby Road story a few times, but … there I was, many years ago, walking home and I noticed a woman had crossed to be on the footpath behind me. I picked up my pace a little to give her some space so she wouldn’t have to worry about me, but I seemed to have trouble putting a distance between us, so I walked even faster. And faster.

    Eventually a very breathless woman called out to ask me if I could please slow down so she could catch up and walk along with me. We did laugh.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19116 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __,

    The Daily Mail addresses misogyny , sort of. [contains pic of Rodger]

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3494 posts Report Reply

First ←Older Page 1 2 3 4 5 Newer→ Last

Post your response…

Please sign in using your Public Address credentials…

Login

You may also create an account or retrieve your password.