Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Democracy Night

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  • Sacha, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    Thanks.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16794 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    (And more importantly, if there's anyone that needs to start engaging, it is the Labour Party. The campaign for 2014 starts now, and if Labour works like it did in the last few weeks, it is winnable. If they work like they did for the past few years, it isn't.)

    Since Jul 2008 • 1376 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    I think the current method of regional lists followed by secret conclave doesn't work, and can't work.

    Amen.

    I'm not sure how, given Labour's current constitution, reform could be achieved, but I am all for it.

    However, note that even the Greens struggle with this. All NZ parties are structured such that incumbents can protect their positions.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2968 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    I'm not actually sure whether Goff's head on a plate would be quite the thing Labour need now.

    If anything it's rewarding those members who sat on their hands during the last term rather than pushing their claim to the role earlier.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16794 posts Report Reply

  • tussock,

    Oh, and what Labour needs, like Mana and Māori, is a positive soundbite that accurately describes the aims and goals their policy will work toward in a way that differentiates them from (primarily) the National party.

    If the four pillars of the Green party and hundreds of pages of associated policy can be broken down to "rivers, kids, and green jobs", so can what the others have to offer.

    Whatever the hell it might be Labour has to offer. Because other than more taxes, more work, and eat your vegetables children, I must have missed it.

    "No asset sales" isn't a policy, eh. People vote for something.

    Since Nov 2006 • 480 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    I’m not sure how, given Labour’s current constitution, reform could be achieved, but I am all for it.

    Hard work, and lots of organising. (Not a very exciting prospect!) But I think that it is quite possible.

    There is an upcoming organisational review. That has to be serious and deep, and can't just be a once-over lightly.

    (The Greens do struggle with this, and I don't advocate the Green's method at all. It would be disastrous in the Labour party. )

    Personally, I am a big advocate of expanding the role of Conference in the party. It's a good story, and it's a good way of making decisions.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1376 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to tussock,

    “No asset sales” isn’t a policy, eh. People vote for something.

    Own Our Future went some way towards that, but it was late to the party.

    For Obama, it was Change We Can Believe In and Yes We Can.

    For Tony Blair, New Labour, New Britain (in addition to cashing in on Cool Britannia). A catchy song also helped.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4365 posts Report Reply

  • hamishm,

    Did anyone else hear M.Hooten on the radio this morning "National will be the underdog in 2014".
    Laugh, I nearly started. He was going overboard on how it was a bad win for them and they had better watch out.
    Gotta keep catapulting the propaganda.
    Goff did well enough that he doesn't need to go now. 6 months time would be the time for it, let people get their heads around what needs to be done and get the generational change sorted out.

    Since Nov 2006 • 345 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    Because the Greens don’t need to do any soul searching: they did really well! The Mana Party likewise. The left actually did reasonably well overall. The Labour Party did badly though.

    Firstly, I think the Green party could still soul search in order to remain humble. Second, Labour did three times as well as the Greens in the polls. And I don't agree the Mana did well. I would have liked to have seen four MPs. I don't think the one MP alone, can represent the diverse underclass.

    Since Nov 2006 • 2752 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to hamishm,

    Laugh, I nearly started. He was going overboard on how it was a bad win for them and they had better watch out.

    He's right. It is, and they had better.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8598 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to tussock,

    People vote for something

    No, people vote for people. And that might explain some of the apparent irrational behavior, that will probably cost us some of our strategic assets. Not to mention the quality of our children's development. IMO

    Since Nov 2006 • 2752 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to hamishm,

    hamishm:

    I know ritually flogging Matthew Hooten never gets tired around these parts, but did you actually bother listening to what he and Mike Williams actually said? Don’t have a lot of time for either man, but thought they were pretty astute, un-hacky and calm. Perhaps they were tired after a very long Saturday night?

    Also, I'm not sure “propaganda” means what you think it does.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12040 posts Report Reply

  • Conrad Lake,

    Mana either needs to be a Maori or if it wants to represent more than Maori it has got to look at where the swing vote is usually from. I suggest its not West Auckland low income earners or South Aucklanders. Minto and Bradford brought in just over 200 (Minto did get 400 electorate votes) votes. Not exactly inspiring.

    CHCH • Since Apr 2009 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to steven crawford,

    And I don't agree the Mana did well. I would have liked to have seen four MPs. I don't think the one MP alone, can represent the diverse underclass.

    Yes, I was disappointed there too. I guess it's on Hone to keep plugging away at what his policy is, so that it's not all new and unknown by the next election.

    It seems to me that Labour would do well to hold out an olive branch in that direction too. My gut feeling is that Mana appeals to just the kind of people who didn't turn up to vote, and if those people felt there was a strong option to the left of Labour that isn't about middle class environmentalism, it could pick up an alienated segment that is highly likely to ally naturally with Labour. With the Green move on capturing the center, Labour does need an ally that appeals to the poor, every bit as much as National needed ACT on the hard right.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8598 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Conrad Lake,

    Mana either needs to be a Maori or if it wants to represent more than Maori it has got to look at where the swing vote is usually from. I suggest its not West Auckland low income earners or South Aucklanders.

    I presumed it was actually beneficiaries they were appealing to.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8598 posts Report Reply

  • Conrad Lake,

    Yes I should have said that too but Mana policies would have helped low income earners so one can presume they were also targetting such people. I guess they wanted to increase the vote and who knows. Maybe they did help to get South Aucklands to vote. Except they were hardly going to vote for Mana were they instead they fell in line with Labour as those electorates have seemingly always done.

    I notice a lot of Green followers after 2008 on the blogosphere also had a rather seeming weird idea as to where some of the Greens vote came from. Certain policies may be attractive to beneficiaries, low income workers, the underclass etc. But those people are actually less likely to swing their vote than the middle class urbanites where the Greens have always done well. NZ First too might have been a small factor as to why the Mana party didn't attract more votes.

    CHCH • Since Apr 2009 • 10 posts Report Reply

  • hamishm, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Well I guess I did listen to them. Because I tend to analyse what people say, I felt that Hooten was playing up or exaggerating the problems for the National government so as help keep the base energised. That's what he does. He's an activist i.e. one who is active. I'm sure he is happy to get mentioned at PAS.
    I disagree that National will be the underdog in 2014 and feel that two days after the election is too early to call the next election. I feel that stressing the negatives for the government is propaganda (information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.) at this stage.

    Since Nov 2006 • 345 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    Labour would do well to hold out an olive branch in that direction too

    Crazy if they don’t. To lose one Māori Party could be considered bad luck, to lose two…
    I too wish Mana had done better. It seems like a wasted vote (curse you MMP, for being so strategic!) and I wanted to see Annette Sykes in da house :)

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 1579 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Conrad Lake,

    NZ First too might have been a small factor as to why the Mana party didn’t attract more votes.

    So far, Te Mana hasn’t performed as well as NZ First and the Alliance did in their debut elections. Hone wasn’t guaranteed an electorate seat in 2011 unlike Winston and Jim were in 1993, but now that he’s back in, he might just solidify his position. Especially if Paula Bennett causes the bottom to drop out of the social market.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4365 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to tussock,

    “No asset sales” isn’t a policy, eh. People vote for something.

    Which was the last week of the campaign.

    Up until then they had a CGT which is a really positive change to our tax base.
    Raising of the retirement age
    First $5k tax free, another change to our tax structure
    and more all positive substantive policies.

    yet the over-riding impression of their campaign is being against asset sales

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3426 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Conrad Lake,

    NZ First too might have been a small factor as to why the Mana party didn't attract more votes.

    It's tricky to be sure, would love to see real stats on it at some point. It's an unusual angle they chose, aiming both inside and outside of Maori, off the strength of a Maori electorate candidate. That may have caused very crossed signals. It's possible that non-Maori were largely unaware of this, and voting for Mana just never crossed their minds. Also, I think that Bradford might alienate more people than she attracts. I still think the anti-smacking saga made a big dent in the left. Minto is a mixed bag. There's a lot of goodwill over the HART work, but when you protest against practically everything, I do think people end up wondering if you're really *for* anything. Which is unfair, it's pretty clear what he's for is world peace and social justice, and we happen to live in a violent and unjust world. But a big chunk of NZers would think he's just a whinger.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8598 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to tussock,

    Oh, and what Labour needs, like Mana and Māori, is a positive soundbite that accurately describes the aims and goals their policy will work toward in a way that differentiates them from (primarily) the National party.

    I know it doesn't go down well around here, but Labour needs to do something more basic - honesty and frankly listen to themselves and genuinely hear what they sound like to people for whom it isn't an article of faith that not-Labour are either stupid or evil.

    Take a look at Australia - 'Doctor No' is beginning to stick to Tony Abbott, even among people who are broadly sympathetic to the Coalition's policy positions, such as they are. It's easy to know what he's against -- if Julia Gillard discovered a cure for cancer, AIDS and the common cold he'd want it destroyed. He can't even resist turning state visits by foreign leaders (including John Key) into occasions for partisan pissing. I'm sure it plays superbly well to the base, but they're not the people who actually tip elections in your direction.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12040 posts Report Reply

  • martinb, in reply to Sacha,

    Or they live on Waiheke, which will never ever be connected by rail to the city. It’s one of the only electorates that doesn’t really have much to gain.

    As someone who used to get a bus from Britomart to the top of town in the morning anyone who was able to commute in on the ferry and then quick train to Ponsonby or K Rd would be advantaged. They can't all work on Waiheke.

    Auckland • Since Jul 2010 • 159 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    One thing I heard before the election and again now is that Labour lost votes to The Greens. The numbers would seem to bear that idea out. I personally don't think it's true in the sense that those voters were owned by Labour. But what it does reflect is that many of the people who voted Labour previously have now come to the conclusion that The Green Party reflects their opinions and desires better than Labour does or perhaps ever did.

    I don't think that demands Labour rethink policy, but what it does suggest is that Labour somehow must define more precisely why you would vote Labour and not Green without attacking the Green party. The Green Party have a pretty clear definition of the principles they work towards. But the Labour Party seems much less defined. I don't think it is just a communication issue I think there really is an issue in Labour around why they are wanting to govern other than simply the desire to have the power. In turn that defines why you might choose to vote for them as opposed to voting against National.

    I never got a sense during the election that you vote Labour because this is the principle they will use to guide their policy making should they need to make policy on the fly. I think they need to sort that out and that is more than just making good policy.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3426 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to martinb,

    Yeah, there's some cases. Pretty few, I'd have thought. Once you've caught the bus to the ferry, and then the ferry, and then another form of public transport, all before you've got to work in the morning, you've got to ask yourself what the actual advantage of living on Waiheke really is*. If you use the train, and it doesn't actually stop at an easy walk from your workplace, you're talking about 8 trips on public transport every working day.

    *because it sure isn't to avoid the rat race.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8598 posts Report Reply

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