Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible Demure Lady Stroll

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  • Jackie Clark, in reply to BenWilson,

    You could ask "Shall we dance?". I quite like that.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3121 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Being a practical guy, I'd love it if there was some formula

    Luckily, there is.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Deb Mudie, in reply to Emma Hart,

    I will put my hand up and admit to not ever having verbally obtained verbal consent from anyone ever.

    Interestingly, I can't remember the last time I didn't obtain verbal consent! Talk is a big part of my sexual interactions, and I find asking for what I want, asking whether they are up for doing x or y, and asking if this can be followed by that (or indeed, being asked), very hot. Implicit in that is the right to say no.

    It may be that years of BDSM, with prior negotiation and clearly understood safewords, has impacted to the point where with all sexual interaction I use a similar framework.

    Or that I just find communication really sexy...

    Auckland • Since Sep 2010 • 8 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings,

    If we're brutally honest I think most of us would have, at least once, touched or spoken to someone in a manner which was inappropriate or harrassing. I know that there were a couple of times, in my younger days, where the only way I could find to deal with guys I found hard to deal with was to make them feel uncomfortable with unwanted innuendo. Really not cool.

    Asking can be sexy and I think it can be non-verbal (touching someone and then making meaningful eye-contact) or part of those other potentially awkward conversations people having sex ought to be having ("I think we're going to need a condom Very Soon"). Generally speaking I think you need to be more explicit the less well you know the person you are sleeping with as (assuming a functional, non-abusive relationship) people who have been together for a while do learn to read each others non-verbal cues.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 702 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to DeepRed,

    And hot off the press… police have dropped all charges against Darren Hughes, for lack of evidence. Jonathan Marshall has a LOT of explaining to do, if he doesn’t want a libel suit to knuckle-sandwich him.

    Oddly enough, it’s not clear whether what Marshall reported has any bearing on the validity of the complaint. But I did quite like on Kiwiblog commenter’s suggestion that his next move might be:

    An interview with the “naked youth” Marshall claimed he was told about by the unnamed staff of an unnamed firm he claims were told about by their unnamed boss?

    Because, actually, we only have Marshall’s word that that part even happened.



    EDIT: The Herald says atm:

    Mr Hughes and the complainant ended up at the home of Labour deputy leader Annette King, where Mr Hughes boarded when in Wellington, and some hours later, witnesses reported seeing the complainant naked in the street.

    Help me out here. Have witnesses said this to anyone but Marshall? And has the naked man ever been positively identified as the complainant?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18512 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Have witnesses said this to anyone but Marshall?

    So it's possible there was no naked man? Really?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3217 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    OK, it might be opportune to adapt a passage from Melissa McEwan’s Rape Culture 101 (shall we just take the trigger warning for the link as read?):

    Rape culture is the idea that only certain people rape—and only certain people get raped. Rape culture is ignoring that the thing about rapists is that they rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are smart and people who are dumb, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are sluts and people who are prudes, people who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are blind and people who are sighted, people who are deaf and people who can hear, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance.

    […]

    Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that there is a “typical” way to behave after being raped, instead of the acknowledgement that responses to rape are as varied as its victims, that, immediately following a rape, some women go into shock; some are lucid; some are angry; some are ashamed; some are stoic; some are erratic; some want to report it; some don’t; some will act out; some will crawl inside themselves; some will have healthy sex lives; some never will again.

    And I’m going to throw a pretty controversial notion out there – Paul Henry’s replicant-like lack of empathy on 60 Minutes this week is the respectable face of rape culture. It was painfully clear that he still regards his twatcocky misogyny towards women who don’t conform to his idea of how women should look and behave as good clean fun. (And as a sidebar, if Three News & Current Affairs is as strapped for cash as has been reported, perhaps Mr. Henry's publisher should be getting invoiced for the advertorial.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11783 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Because, actually, we only have Marshall’s word that that part even happened.

    And it's never going to be tested in a court of law, is it? Could everyone please do my stomach lining a solid and NOT post any links to related threads on Kiwibog and the Sub-Standard because I think the character assassination of the complainant will be as ugly as it is predictable.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11783 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    You always have the choice to not click... ;-)

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1768 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    And I’m going to throw a pretty controversial notion out there – Paul Henry’s replicant-like lack of empathy on 60 Minutes this week is the respectable face of rape culture.

    The only remotely controversial thing about that is the use of the word "respectable" re: Paul Henry,

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1768 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to nzlemming,

    You always have the choice to not click… ;-)

    Next you’ll be telling me to stop watching horror movies and rubbernecking at car smashes. Your faith in my masochistic impulse control is touching but ever so slightly misplaced.

    But seriously, folks, if you must a trigger warning would be entirely appropriate because we know those sewers are going to go there...

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11783 posts Report Reply

  • Gee, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    There was one occasion, however, when I wasn't at all keen, in the slightest, and despite saying no the once, I understood that I wasn't going to get listened to, I just lay there, really. It wasn't rough but I explicitly remember thinking "I don't want this". I have always felt uncomfortable using the term "rape" for what happened.

    This is where the 'no one will believe me' comes in, and ties into what Heather said above:
    a person has said 'no' once but has (and these *are* scare-quotes, not trolling) "given in"** to either verbal or physical attack when they ignored the denial of consent. But it's amazing how many people would counter that this "giving in" is quote-unquote "consent". At which point they no longer consider the person a victim... Maybe that's why it's not easy for us to call this kind of situation rape? Because we've been guilted and/or indoctrinated to believe we "should fight harder" to "avoid" rape?

    ** For clarity: There is absolutely no way I consider this 'giving in'. Sexual acts are still rape when one or more person doesn't want to. ALWAYS.

    Canada, eh • Since May 2011 • 75 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Have witnesses said this to anyone but Marshall?

    So it’s possible there was no naked man? Really?

    I'm trying to work out if there is any account other than that of Marshall, who has already been accused of asking another student to lie in an attempt to get the complainant's lecture schedule.

    As I said, this doesn't have a bearing on the merit of the complaint, it just it occurs to me that it's possible that part didn't happen.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18512 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    And I’m going to throw a pretty controversial notion out there – Paul Henry’s replicant-like lack of empathy on 60 Minutes this week is the respectable face of rape culture. It was painfully clear that he still regards his twatcocky misogyny towards women who don’t conform to his idea of how women should look and behave as good clean fun.

    Craig, this is completely over the top. Think what you like about Henry, but this is way too fucking close to calling him a rapist and I will delete any further attempt to press such a point.

    I further suspect that you would not say the same about John Key, who has had his own moments this year, not least in the company of Tony Veitch. Please, stop it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18512 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Your faith in my masochistic impulse control is touching but ever so slightly misplaced.

    Given it's self directed, would that classify as good or bad touching?

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1768 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Noted.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1768 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Russell Brown,

    police have dropped all charges against Darren Hughes, for lack of evidence.

    it's nice that charges have been dropped. what's the consensus on members of parliament picking up teenagers?

    as a starter for six i'd like to return to the conversation what said, 'dazza, WTF are you thinking?'

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Che Tibby,

    it’s nice that charges have been dropped. what’s the consensus on members of parliament picking up teenagers?

    They should not do so. Especially when the pick-up happens at or subsequent to an event they have attended in their capacity as an MP.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18512 posts Report Reply

  • Thomas Johnson, in reply to Russell Brown,

    They should not do so. Especially when the pick-up happens at or subsequent to an event they have attended in their capacity as an MP.

    Apparently it is all McCully's fault? I have trouble following Pagani's logic here.

    Wellington • Since Oct 2007 • 98 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Thomas Johnson,

    I have trouble following Pagani's logic here.

    He blogs for Stuff too now? How do these people choose their left wing voices?! This is beyond token.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Thomas Johnson,

    Sometimes I just want to weep. How do people get paid to write that poorly? What does he mean by "luxurious", because it clearly isn't "luxurious"? I may not have much time for Farrar but at least he can construct a sentence.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4327 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Emma Hart,

    What does he mean by "luxurious", because it clearly isn't "luxurious"?

    That he was both a speechwriter and a strategist for Labour may go some way towards explaining the party's current predicament.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Russell Brown,

    They should not do so.

    yeah, that is what i thought i remembered reading.

    this circle of conversation keeps coming back to 'enabling' for me. people sometimes do violent things like rape, people sometime do stupid things like their their genitals thing for them, and people sometimes do betrayal by cheating.

    those things are all on a continuum from 'WTF' to 'wtf...', but what they all have in common is that if you're the person standing by and letting that happen, you need to take a look at yourself.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    That he was both a speechwriter and a strategist for Labour may go some way towards explaining the party's current predicament.

    That he *remained* one for so long really speaks volumes..

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16272 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Sue,

    Today I read government is cutting funding to Women’s refuges and self-defence classes for girls. I wonder what is going on in our society where this is even considered as an option.

    While fundies get granted roughly the same amount of money.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4059 posts Report Reply

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