Up Front: Stand for... Something
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Oh come on, the main purpose of jaffas in cinemas in those days was to roll them from the back row down the (uncarpetted) steps during quiet moments ....
I'm sure the theatres swept them back up and repackaged them for later resale
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
“Matariki at midnight”
It's very pretty... can we call it the Union Black?
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
Maybe there is some reason for flags in 2015 but I can’t think of a good one.
This relates to the simplistic designs we seem to be restricted to. Historically flags were used so that soldiers could avoid killing other soldiers who were on the same team. They had to be simple and recognizable over a decent distance. Bold colours and patterns were important.
None of that is true now.
So how come we can't break all the rules and have a flag that is more detailed and perhaps at the same time more representative.
Or we could just flag the whole thing and leave it as it is - historic and somewhat irrelevant.
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... or the Star-Sprinkled Banner?
I had a good look through all the flag suggestions at www.flag.govt.nz. It was really interesting to see the patterns (no pun, honest!) and recurring themes.
There are the flags that are really just our current flag, with some very minor variation that shows the poster doesn't want the flag to change at all, but has to make a change or it won't be uploaded.
There are the flags that are silly/irreverent/put up for fun.
There are the suggestions that are artworks, some of them good or interesting but not (to my mind) suitable as actual flags.
There are suggestions that I think would work better as some company logo than a flag.
And then there are the suggestions that you could conceivably imagine seeing as flags. It doesn't mean they'd be great, but they seem to me to have grasped the basics of flag design.
Common themes? Variations on koru, the silver fern, the southern cross, the pleiades. Plenty that still have the union flag on them. The NZ coat of arms.
Common colours? Primary red, white, royal and sky blue, black, grass green.
Far too many flags that fail to grasp what to me should be one of the starting points for flag design: your child should be able to draw it easily. I'd allow a few exceptions to that. The Welsh flag, with its dragon, is awesome, and I remember from having to draw it at school that it was really hard. But it still makes for an excellent flag.
But on the "hard to draw" basis, I'd exclude the coat of arms. I'd leave out the kiwi (actually a stylised kiwi is easier to draw than a dragon or a silver fern, but I just don't like it, so I'm using this rule as an excuse to exclude it) I'd also exclude the silver fern. It is pretty. But there's not enough geometry to it. When it comes to flags, I believe in geometry. Koru, on the other hand, do follow some basic geometrical rules, so I'll allow them. Ditto stars, though their placement can be problematic.
That also makes the pleiades challenging. They're a pretty constellation. I like their symbolism But where do I put them on a flag? The Southern Cross can be stylised to a diamond shape, but the pleiades? I guess their arrangement could be stylised too, but current designs including them don't obviously do that.
My other rule for flag design would be simplicity of colour. Not too many, thanks.
And then I went hunting on the internet for flags of the world, and discovered that of course there's a whole field that studies the aesthetics and symbolism of flags, called vexillology. I also found some guy who "graded" the world's flags, who came up with [[http://www.otago.ac.nz/philosophy/Staff/JoshParsons/flags/meth.html|a handy list of "don'ts" for flags]. N.B. Our current flag gets a C. It's downgraded for "colonial nonsense" (presumably the inclusion of the Union Jack). I'm not sure I agree with all his aesthetic judgements, but his rules seem pretty spot on to me.
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For those that think we should use the Silver Fern then think again, there maybe a trademark dispute and wouldn't that be amusing?.
The NZRU has trademarked the fern's use around the world and is concerned about other companies trading off its brand.
Is John Key spoiling for fight with NZRU or is that another little deal going on there?. -
Joe Wylie, in reply to
the main purpose of jaffas in cinemas in those days was to roll them from the back row down the (uncarpetted) steps during quiet moments ….
Conspicuous consumption. Aniseed balls were at least as noisy, at less than half the cost.
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Marcus Turner, in reply to
I think five for a penny, at least.
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Dave Armstrong wants a new flag but not when it's part of a "costly corporate rebranding exercise."
Were our prime minister pushing for a republic or a more independent foreign policy, I could understand the desire for a new flag. Yet by supporting a new flag but nothing else progressive, Key reminds me of the suited teachers I had at secondary school who magnanimously announced a school mufti day then, once the cheering had subsided, sternly warned us that jeans were forbidden as they were too scruffy.
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BenWilson, in reply to
They had to be simple and recognizable over a decent distance. Bold colours and patterns were important.
None of that is true now.
I think it's still quite a good thing for it to be recognizable over a distance.
Other advantages to simpler designs:
-People can actually draw it, paint it, cut it out, knit it, etc.
-Easier to remember for everyone, including people from other countries.
-Less tendency to overloading it with every ephemeral symbol. Save that for a coat of arms.
-Less direct symbolism means it will date less rapidly.
-You might be able to describe it in words, over the phone.
-It might get a name of its own that sticks like the Union Jack or Stars and Stripes. -
The pick-a-flag meetings are really picking up support. After only ten people turned up in Christchurch, the Dunedin meeting attracted 25 members of the public. The Invercargill one drew 50 people.
There are 21 of these public meetings being held around the country which, at the current rate will attract in total maybe 500 to 1,000 people out of a population of 4.5m.
Our little country is obviously enthralled with Key's $27m flag distraction exercise. Not!
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Katharine Moody, in reply to
And the new found 'increase' in attendance is because the National Party local branch membership is being encouraged to support this brand Key/Key branding initiative.
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Bart Janssen, in reply to
Other advantages to simpler designs:
Which are good. But if you assume we go for a Hubble image of the Pleiades then ...
-People can actually draw it, paint it, cut it out, knit it, etc.
Well no they can't draw that - but hang on - bugger all people can draw our current flag - go on I dare you without opening up an image of it to copy!!! The only people who hand draw a flag are children and they are always going to abstract the image anyway so providing you have something you can abstract eg seven stars in a pattern then why not have the parent image much richer in detail.
-Easier to remember for everyone, including people from other countries.
Ok this is critical ... for pub triv! In all other situations you can use your connection to the internet - besides if we made our flag a Hubble image everyone would remember it as opposed to those anonymous green or white squiggles that look like all the other anonymous flags that folks are currently suggesting ... it's red white and blue "The USA" ... no red white and blue stripes ... "France" ... no the other way up ... "er I don't know*"
-Less tendency to overloading it with every ephemeral symbol. Save that for a coat of arms.
Gonna go out on a limb and suggest the Pleiades will look like that long after New Zealand ceases to exist as any kind of political entity and perhaps even after it goes as a land mass.
-Less direct symbolism means it will date less rapidly.
So far all the designs suffer from dating. If anything the Pleiades is going to be less dated.
-You might be able to describe it in words, over the phone.
Ok really - who describes a flag over the phone and why would you? I guess you might need to describe it to a visually impaired person in which case I reacon describing the Pleiades is going to be a LOT easier than most of the squggles suggested thus far.
-It might get a name of its own that sticks like the Union Jack or Stars and Stripes.
oooo I know ... we could call it The Matariki although having a nickname for your flag is getting slightly meta don't you think
*The Netherlands -
Joe Wylie, in reply to
… it’s red white and blue “The USA” … no red white and blue stripes … “France” … no the other way up … “er I don’t know*”...
*The NetherlandsThen there's the minimalist Indonesian flag. Easily improvised back in the independence struggle by ripping the nether blue stripe from the Netherlands flag.
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I think we should have a national poi.
With fire-poi mandated at night, and when foreign sports grounds (or gas stations) refuse to allow NZers to spin their traditional flaming poi, we can call them out for being culturally insensitive to our national traditions.
(Might need to wait 10 years or so for the invented tradition to mature),
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st ephen, in reply to
You mean they didn't just use Poland's flag upside down?
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I liked the idea of the nautical flag for Z that was posted above: "Someone needs a hug". That says Unzud to me. Or maybe Whiskey: "Requires medicinal assistance".
I can't understand why people want their flag to be drawn by children. We've already dumbed down politics and TV - surely everyone can see that Italy's flag is completely lacking an eagle attacking a snake above a cactus? -
linger, in reply to
Zulu = “needs a tug ”, which is quite a different message.
Note also that “Romeo” carries no subsidiary message – only one intent? (and meanwhile Juliett [sic] is “on fire”) ...
and then there’s the self-contradictory combination of “Tango—keep clear"… -
Joe Wylie, in reply to
surely everyone can see that Italy's flag is completely lacking an eagle attacking a snake above a cactus?
They Twinked® it out after Garbaldi beat the Mexicans?
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Ben Austin, in reply to
Really? How interesting. I would expect that National Party members would be rather torn on the issue. The rural party membership especially. Certainly the ones I know anyway wouldn't have any time for the idea of a change, being quite happy with the current flag and constitutional setup.
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Two questions, one of clear law, the other of unclear politics:
Is it possible to amend the referendum legislation, so that a minimum turnout is required before it is binding? And assuming it's possible, is there any chance it would happen? (i.e. would National accept such an amendment?).
If we have a referendum that is both postal AND unwanted, turnout could be chronically low - say, 25%. And if that produces a narrow vote for change and is binding ... cripes. Yes, I know the answer is "Shoulda voted", but still - that is Key buying a whole lot of trouble.
I really hope they've thought this through (or maybe I don't: "Events, dear boy, events ...").
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Our country has certainly engaged in the flag debate, or maybe not.
The 25 nationwide roadshow meetings ended last week and figures released by the flag panel showed a total of 739 people attended - an average of 29 per meeting.
By my calculation, that's 4,599,595 of us who aren't vaguely interested in Key's $27m flag distraction policy. My worry is that the handful of people who are playing Key's game will actually get to decide what happens to our national symbol.
I was hoping that some form of protest vote would come to the fore -- a flag featuring a ponytail perhaps? If enough of us voted for that option, the Nats would have a real problem on their hands. However their hand-picked panel will never allow cynical designs to make the final cut, so that's not really an option.
Short of refusing to vote, is there any other way to send a message to the government that this issue is nothing but a huge waste of taxpayers' money? Or do we have to wait for the second referendum to produce a resounding "no"?
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Rosemary McDonald, in reply to
is there any other way to send a message to the government that this issue is nothing but a huge waste of taxpayers’ money?
There were a few ideas as what to do about this at the (un-named) RSA the other weekend, as we stood around waiting for the hangi fire to do its thing.
Those old diggers and diggeresses are pretty pissed off about the whole thing.
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
Or it shows that these days people don't engage with an issue by attending physical meetings.
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