Up Front by Emma Hart

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Up Front: The Real Victims, Here

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  • Moz,

    InCel is one of those labels that kind of ends the conversation. It's like someone who says "I'm a nazi" or "god commands us to kill the gays"... the best response is "let me know when that changes" and adding them to a watch-list. Ideally the type that prevents them having access to firearms.

    I'm not a huge fan of watchlists and stuff as a rule, but when someone chooses to label themselves as needing that sort of attention, bring it on.

    I’m Emma, and I’m a victim.

    Hi, I'm Moz and I'm an inquisitive idiot.

    all those people calling him a homophobic idiot just because he said something idiotically homophobic. Christians are the real victims here.

    Won't someone think of the Christians who aren't homophobic idiots?

    Also, thank you for reminding me of "that tweet" because I still love your writing and and that particular headsplosion.

    Emma: eyerolling out loud is rarely so funny.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1101 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Moz,

    I'm not a huge fan of watchlists and stuff as a rule, but when someone chooses to label themselves as needing that sort of attention, bring it on.

    These guys. Kicked off reddit - reddit - for being too awful. But given they advocate, and sometimes carry out - extreme violence, if half the members of their forums are law enforcement personnel... I'm kind of okay with that.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4631 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Attachment

    Also. This came up on my Twitter feed this morning but didn't really fit into the post. How did these guys get this way? I guess we'll never know. (Image from the Daily Mail.)

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4631 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew, in reply to Emma Hart,

    But given they advocate, and sometimes carry out - extreme violence, if half the members of their forums are law enforcement personnel... I'm kind of okay with that.

    That's one of the problems they're having with the racist hatemongers in the Southern US - half of the members are law enforcement, but not in the good "we're monitoring this hate-speech" kinda way.

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    Them feeling utterly entitled to women is the problem. That’s what needs fixing.

    There are times when I just can't figure out any way to understand some people and this is one of them.

    This attitude is so far from my own I can't even imagine how they became the way they are. I'm left just shaking my head in confusion.

    How does a society create such people? Did nobody notice that they were insane? What must their parents feel like when they discover that they've raised such an evil person? Or their teachers? Do they have any normal friends?

    None of it makes any kind of sense at all.

    They are however, quite real and somehow society (us) needs to figure out how to end such behaviour.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4423 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    What must their parents feel like when they discover that they've raised such an evil person?

    I've seen a couple of dads on Twitter really worried about how to stop their kids getting sucked into this headspace. I've seen people talk about monitoring their teenagers' internet usage, and fuck knows I don't know more than anyone else, but I think this is too late.

    Drench your sons from the earliest age in stories where female characters aren't in relationships, aren't pursuing relationships, are just Doing Stuff like people. Model treating women with respect, asking their opinions, listening when they speak. Share the care-giving. Say things to your sons like "Well okay, but Mum can't do that for you right now because she has to work/go drink wine in the bath."

    What must their parents feel like when they discover that they've raised such an evil person?

    This occurred to me just after I hit 'post' on that comment.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4631 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    How does a society create such people? Did nobody notice that they were insane?

    Based on my limited interactions with lonely young men, there seems to be a transition possible from "sad and lonely" to "hatefilled arsehole" via the pick-up artist school. I seriously think that it's partly a side effect of the marketing of that shit. The whole "100% certain success with any woman" stuff leads to "I did the thing but she looked at me like I was shit. Can't be the technique, must be her".

    My comment to the sad'n'lonely guys is some variation on "it might sound trite, but 'don't be a dick' covers 99% of it. And most of that is thinking about how she's going to feel about what you do".

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1101 posts Report Reply

  • Robert Harvey,

    FWIW, Kate Wilhelm's "The Gate To Women's Country" points to one way this might go, and there are times I can't see it turning out any better.

    Westmere • Since Nov 2006 • 55 posts Report Reply

  • mpledger,

    In a "This American Life" "act", a woman confronts her (real life) troll to find out why he was so horrible to her. He had put in quite a lot of effort to find a way to hurt her - it wasn't just random nastyness.
    https://www.thisamericanlife.org/545/if-you-dont-have-anything-nice-to-say-say-it-in-all-caps/act-one

    In the recording he sounded like he was an ok guy. Mostly he explained it away that she was happy and happy with who she was (which included being fat) while he was alone and unhappy.

    Since Oct 2012 • 92 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Robert Harvey,

    FWIW, Kate Wilhelm's "The Gate To Women's Country"

    A wonderful novel by Sherri S Tepper

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4423 posts Report Reply

  • Robert Harvey, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Aaaarrrgghhh! So much for memory. Thanks Bart.

    Westmere • Since Nov 2006 • 55 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    It took a lot, this acceptance. It’s a weird feeling, the first time you see your name on a police form next to the word “victim”.

    I’ve had that. Several years ago, l had to attend a restorative justice meeting after a kid stole my car and crashed it into a concrete fence. I had left the keys in the ignition of the unwarranted unregistered car.

    At the conference I was introduced as “the victim” the kid was Paul Hunter*, and his mother was “the mother” the mother sat there and abused Paul and assured everyone that she was a very angry person. I gave Paul a stern looking at, and said ” you owe me twenty five dollars in damages. Paul was visibly shocked.

    *not his real name

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4004 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to Emma Hart,

    Firstly, they’re not after sex. No, hear me out. They don’t want to get laid. They wouldn’t visit a sex worker. They want sex slaves.

    One small addendum: they don't just want a sex slave, they want, essentially, a slave. When confronted or presented with a response that boils down to 'it's relatively easy to get laid if you're half-presentable and not a complete dick with hugely unrealistic expectations, so how about you try that?', the default retreat position is to yabber on about 'the package'. That is to say, someone who is not only hot 24/7 all month long, fucks on demand and has the pre-programmed 'hot' responses, but who will always be available to make you a sandwich and crack open a cold one afterwards, and not only won't interrupt you watching the game, but will sit lovingly at your feet handing you the remote when needed, or who will be off cleaning the kitchen or something else that doesn't disturb you or require, y'know, real human interaction between equals.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2723 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming,

    Doesn't post often, but continues to smack them out of the park. Thanks, Emma.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2893 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    Incels, Israel and SUV's there is no depth to which human stupidity will not sink.
    And as the saying goes there is no cure for stupidity.
    The only way out is a mea culpa after doing something really arseholic. And thats a thing of rare beauty nowadays.

    Incels and Foleau have one thing in common, young and male. It isnt a prerequisite for an arseholism but it seems to be an indicator of sorts. They're both as dumb as a hunk of metal with the ignition turned off.

    Israel picked up his stupidity in his Polynesian christian upbringing and hasnt given it any thought since he was 7 years old. But he plays a ball game for money, he's has no intellectual heft of any kind.

    FFS its not hard to figure out why an insecure desert tribe has prohibitions against anything that would limit their numbers. And a quick scan of history would have told him how it ended up being taught in his culture by palangi.
    As for incels make the celibacy voluntary and take up meditation, and I'll stop thinking of them as morons.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1703 posts Report Reply

  • Pete,

    Oh wow Debbie used to be my neighbour growing up - just a normal kid as far as I recall - great to see that she did so well

    Who the fuck do Incels think they are that they have a right to trash someone so qualified to do her job?
    What a pack of spankcarrots - fortunately they are incapable of breeding

    Since Apr 2008 • 93 posts Report Reply

  • WaterDragon,

    One word: yes

    Behind you • Since Jul 2011 • 69 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Armstrong,

    Internet bunkers? I would have thought in every rugby / cricket club across Australasia.

    After reading rugby lad Hone Harawira's recent defence of Israel Folau I could only think of all the homosexuals in nazi Germany that literally burned in hell.

    The only politician I have ever voted for is now the only one I pray for.

    New Zealand • Since Jan 2015 • 2 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Simon Armstrong,

    burned in hell.

    Nope, gas ovens buddy.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1703 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Simon Armstrong,

    Bugger missed the edit window.
    Eternal damnation or threats about what happens after death are only a tool used the living against others living, who they dont approve of for reasons known only to them.

    And who seek approval of their course of action in the eyes of others who think like them. And so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1703 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Pete,

    Who the fuck do Incels think they are that they have a right to trash someone so qualified to do her job?
    What a pack of spankcarrots - fortunately they are incapable of breeding

    Going by the points observed by the venerable Umberto Eco in his essay on proto-Fascism, incels fit all 14 criteria:

    1. Cult of tradition (the belief that women should be property)
    2. Rejection of modernism ("giving women the vote has ruined the West!")
    3. Action for action's sake (spree shootings etc)
    4. Disagreement is treason (obvious)
    5. Fear of the other ("you will not replace us!","all Muslims are terrorists!")
    6. Appeal to a frustrated middle class (sense of entitlement among incels)
    7. Ultranationalism/obsession with a plot ("Judaeo-Marxist feminism is to blame for the Muslim flood!")
    8. The enemy is both too strong & too weak ("feminism threatens to make us irrelevant!")
    9. Perpetual warfare (obvious)
    10. Social Darwinism ("beta cucks")
    11. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death. (Marc Lepine, Elliot Rodger, Nickolas Cruz, Alek Minassian)
    12. Machismo (obvious)
    13. Selective populism (getting their views justified by PrisonPlanet, InfoWars etc)
    14. Newspeak (the term "incel" is itself Newspeak-ish)

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5380 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Simon Armstrong,

    Harawira’s recent defence

    garbled nonsense

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1703 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford, in reply to andin,

    burned in hell.

    Nope, gas ovens buddy.

    Empathy can help people do very bad things. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/09/the-violence-of-empathy/407155/

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4004 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    Massive advances were made in the 20th century in understanding our psychology but most of it never made it out of universities and books. To our general detriment vast swathes of humanity still cling to superstition. And funny thing, the societies that gave birth to most of it are now pulling themselves apart over money.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1703 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Armstrong,

    Surely lack of empathy is worse? The resulting normalcy of Ad hominem now a defining characteristic of both liberal and conservative end points of the web.

    New Zealand • Since Jan 2015 • 2 posts Report Reply

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