Up Front: Eat Up Your Brothelly
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What's the problem with either side of that equation?
Absolutely nothing! Well said Gio.
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I see it as a trade based on a position of power that favours the buyer because s/he has money. And yes, that in itself probably applies to dentists as well.
But I don't see dentists standing around on K Road soliciting work every morning as I walk to work. I see some of the most vulnerable and desperate women (mostly) in society. Women that appear to have little other choice. And I see buyers as men (mostly) who are taking advantage of this situation.
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Equality? Sure, but ...
I was in Bunnings recently with my man. At the till, I pulled out my money, the check out girl commented with a smile " That's good of you to pay, he should really" I commented " Why? Don't you like being equal in society? Why should he have to pay?" She then said "Oh yeah, never thought of it like that" I responded, "well let's hope you do in your future."
The guy at the next till said "Yeah". Then they both giggled. -
But society's unhealthy attitude to sex notwithstanding, that doesn't reflect badly on them.
I don't think it's a given that feeling prostitution is an undesirable outcome for people is an unhealthy attitude to sex. That's like saying that feeling stink about them working in a coal mine for peanuts is an unhealthy attitude to work. Or that being ashamed to have a mad gambler for offspring is an unhealthy attitude to gambling. Or that feeling bitter on your son for being a pisshead is an unhealthily attitude to alcohol. You can tolerate something whilst still disliking it heartily and wanting to take steps to lessen it's impact on society.
It's not like being gay, which doesn't sound like something people choose, and the denial of which is a virtual guarantee of lifelong unhappiness. Being denied to work in a whorehouse is something you'd probably get over.
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Replace prostitute with gay, if you want to test your tolerance. How would you react if somebody said here, okay, you might be fine with your child being gay, but would you brag about it with your friends? Or, yes, it might be okay to have gay relations, but should people be required to?
I'm not sure if that is a useful equivalence. We are talking about people choosing to take up sex work, which is a bit different from being something - such as gay.
I think your challenge stands by itself. We as a society are uncomfortable with sex-work as anything that has status or is desirable. Rightly or wrongly, even many of the most liberal amongst us wouldn't be putting that down as occupations for ourselves or those we care about. I wonder if any research has been done as to whether the law reforms have caused that to change over the past decade or so?
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That's like saying that feeling stink about them working in a coal mine for peanuts is an unhealthy attitude to work. Or that being ashamed to have a mad gambler for offspring is an unhealthy attitude to gambling.
I know you're an intelligent person, so would you care to try to argue honestly? By equating obviously undesirable job situations with all forms of prostitution and using expressions like "whorehouse" and "sucking cock" to describe it, you're painting a very specific and narrow image of the profession. Is that how you'd characterise what Lisa Lewis does? I don't think so. Are Lisa Lewis' parents' proud of her success, or brag about it with their friends? I honestly don't know. I don't much care, it's not really what it's about, you're the one who introduced the idea that it can be a good profession only if society finds it so, whilst at the same time reducing it to your (and much of society's) extremely narrow view of it.
Emma has linked on this thread and in the past to the writings of sex workers whose experiences diverge greatly from the one you're trying to paint here. You could do the decent thing and acknowledge that they exist and that their experience is in fact valid. Or not, it's really up to you.
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This all comes down to our pesky chastity orbs again, doesn't it?
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I suspect so.
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Emma has linked on this thread and in the past to the writings of sex workers whose experiences diverge greatly from the one you're trying to paint here.
Yes, I read those and I'm happy to acknowledge that those experiences are valid. They just don't tally with what I see on a daily basis. I don't know how representative those blogged experiences are.
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PS, from way back on page two:
The women who strip are also usually the ones with dancer-esque bodies
You, my friend, have clearly not been entertained by the ladies of La Chatte Gentlemen's Club in Houston, Texas.
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Sure, but if anyone is reflected badly upon by sex trade it's the buyer - not the seller (IMHO).
Why? I knew a rent boy one of whose regulars (and a perfect gentleman) was an elderly man who only came to terms with his homosexuality very late in life, and to be brutally frank found "the scene" ageist, scary and unsatisfying? Do you think hanging around public toilets or beats (with the very real dangers involved) or being treated like shit by youth-obsessed scene queens would have "reflected" better on him?
You may beg to differ, but it seems to me that nobody was being ill-used or 'exploited' in that transaction. If anything, it strikes me a damn sight more honest and mutually respectful than your average Friday night hook up.
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They just don't tally with what I see on a daily basis.
And what is it that you see on a daily basis? Do you clean windows or install phones at escort agencies? Do you work at an AIDS clinic, or do pro bono legal work for a prostitutes' union? Do tell.
I tell you what I used to see every day going to my primary school: a nice and very dressed up lady standing by the side of the road next to a sports car, who always seemed cheerful and always said hi. And yes, she was there at eight in the morning. I can't tell you how she felt about her job, or if it made her feel happier and more fulfilled than my mother or my father or my teachers at school. You just can't make those kinds of assumptions - and why would you?
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"Prostitution is a combination of sex and commerce. Which of these are you opposed to?"
There are occupations that you boast about at those hypothetical cocktail parties, there are those that you mention in passing, and then there are the ones where you try and change the subject: prostitute, IRD Auditor, proctologist, bin man (person), etc.
Doesn't mean they aren't useful professions that add value to society, and may well be a source of pride and enjoyment for the worker.
A friend of mine's wife is an auditor for the IRD. He tends not to mention it casually, not because he's ashamed of her and what she does, but because of the snide reactions he generally gets. It's not worth the hassle.
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And what is it that you see on a daily basis?
What I see: (as I said upthread):
But I don't see dentists standing around on K Road soliciting work every morning as I walk to work. I see some of the most vulnerable and desperate women (mostly) in society. Women that appear to have little other choice. And I see buyers as men (mostly) who are taking advantage of this situation.
And what you see:
a nice and very dressed up lady standing by the side of the road next to a sports car, who always seemed cheerful and always said hi
I guess we live in different parts of our respective towns.
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Why? I knew a rent boy one of whose regulars (and a perfect gentleman) was an elderly man who only came to terms with his homosexuality very late in life, and to be brutally frank found "the scene" ageist, scary and unsatisfying? Do you think hanging around public toilets or beats (with the very real dangers involved) or being treated like shit by youth-obsessed scene queens would have "reflected" better on him?
There is also a history of sex workers catering to those with intellectual and physical disabilities who don't get much otherwise (UK example). Which is why IHC supported prostitution law reform in NZ. Those scenarios are not demeaning to either client or worker.
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I guess we live in different parts of our respective towns.
No, actually I lived next to the Alfa Romeo motor car factory, if you must know. In that area street prostitution at the moment is controlled by an Albanian crime ring I believe. But the point is that both of us only see what happens at street level. Prostitution happens in a lot of places that you don't see. (And it pays not to make too many assumptions about what you do see, I must say.)
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But the point is that both of us only see what happens at street level. Prostitution happens in a lot of places that you don't see.
True.
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They just don't tally with what I see on a daily basis. I don't know how representative those blogged experiences are.
As Giovanni has pointed out, street prostitution isn't representative either. We're lucky enough to have fabulous solid data about prostitution in New Zealand, and 11% of prostitutes are street workers, roughly the same number who work as higher-end "escorts". (That article goes on to lay out the reasons why the Chch numbers are well dodgy.)
So (that taken into account), in my city there are only about 30-40 street workers. Even on Manchester Street I'm only going to see a couple, and I think it would be very dangerous to reach any conclusions on that basis, particularly about what's going on inside their heads. My daughter's "That woman's dressed like Faith" is about as far as I'd go.
Also: what Jeremy and Giovanni and Philip said.
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Gio, I'm only aiming for a slightly more balanced view of this business than focusing entirely on the people who got something good out of it. There's a shitload of people who suffer majorly at the hands of it, and if you can't see that, you're not being honest. I wish it weren't that way, but it is.
I'm also talking about my direct experiences of the places and people, which actually are quite a lot of people because I've got some extremely dodgy mates who've had a lot to do with prostitutes, and I've socialized with them (the prostitutes) extensively, talked a great deal about their experiences. I've actually been in a wide sample of the places I'm talking about, either meeting up, or because that's where the people (both mates and prostitutes) live. I've seen them cracked up out of their minds, heard about the sick shit (as they put it) that they have had to do, the difficult and violent customers they've had, the exploitative bosses, the constant run-ins with the law, the deportations, the diseases they've caught. I've heard their crazy talk, their criminal plotting, their attitudes to their co-workers.
I'm yet to meet any that have said it's something they wanted for their own kids, and they're hardly in a position to be judgmental. They just happen to know from personal experience, that it is a business that grinds a lot of people down real hard.
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Gio, I'm only aiming for a slightly more balanced view of this business than focusing entirely on the people who got something good out of it. There's a shitload of people who suffer majorly at the hands of it, and if you can't see that, you're not being honest. I wish it weren't that way, but it is.
Nobody has ever said this isn't the case. In fact I think you'll find I said the opposite. It still doesn't make prostitution "wrong" for everyone and in absolute terms. Nor does it allow you to say that it is wrong because it's the only prostitution there is, which is what you've repeatedly been trying to do here. That is patently, demonstrably untrue.
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One of those bitchy travel writers once described ESOL teaching abroad as a refuge for dull people with no talents, abilities or achievements beyond the fact that they happened to have been born into a native-English speaking community.
So, nothing to brag about then. Perhaps 'having sex for money' falls into the same category, regardless of any perceived moral dimension?
(That's not to say that there aren't particularly brilliant teachers or sex workers or used-house salesmen or whatever. But maybe introducing a higher hurdle for entry into the work-force would help raise job status...) -
Dude, I've never said it's morally wrong. I wouldn't have been associating with these people and making friends with them if I felt that way. I'm just giving my perspective, which is actually mostly their perspective, on the matter. It's not just like any other business, it's a pretty unique one. It's not even so much like businesses that are apparently quite close to it, like stripping. There's something very different about actually fucking people. Sure that's a societal prejudice, but it colors everything about the game.
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Nobody has ever said this isn't the case. In fact I think you'll find I said the opposite. It still doesn't make prostitution "wrong" for everyone and in absolute terms.
I don't think that's what Ben has said at all, and I think it's worth at least respecting his direct experience and contact with the industry, rather than putting words in his mouth.
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Cheers Russell, but I'll still apologize for the use of language that could be called emotive about the prostitutes, like 'sucking cocks' and 'whorehouses'. It's just so common when I put myself in the mindset of the conversations. Working girls don't tend to hold illusions about themselves, even if they insist on better language from their customers. I guess I should have considered how I tend to feel about being called a 'code-monkey'. Yeah it's actually what I am and what I tend to call myself, but it's not my job title nor something I want my bosses saying, except perhaps as a joke.
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We're lucky enough to have fabulous solid data about prostitution in New Zealand, and 11% of prostitutes are street workers...
Thanks Emma, that's interesting. I'll concede that my view on prostitution is coloured by the street workers I see. And no, I don't actually know what goes on in their heads. I still see these workers as not being in a position to negotiate a fair deal with their clients.
Hopefully the remaining 89% have better and safer working conditions.
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