OnPoint: Yeah nah, but what *do* we stand for?
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Thank you Keith, and my son for posting a link to this on Facebook
What's the rush - only a legacy for Mr Key, I suspect . I for one can wait for a full and proper constitutional process that has at is basis proper engagement with the tangata whenua,The thing I dislike about the proposed flag is the silver fern being the symbol of our "kiwi myth" - that's so linked in the marketing of our sport teams - and I'm a sports nut - but I don't want to minimise New Zealand to that - we are much much more
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We will have to change the flag if we become a republic
Why? Hawai'i has the union jack on its state flag.
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That’s why I’m voting no
Could you clarify, no to what?
If there is some sort of political will we can go through the flag change process again, whenever - I don't believe there is any law nor legal reason why we couldn't repeat this process, other than common sense.
This flag change has been a huge wasted opportunity and of taxpayers money - we could have had some really informed robust debate and discussion about ourselves and our sense of nationhood, which would move onto designs.... but it quickly turned into a us against them contest not of ideas or image but of politics and PR spin.
I still don't know how I'll vote, for a flag I dislike or a design I loathe, not voting seems like a really solid choice for once.
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Actually Ritchie McCaw's position may be quite right. Change the flag to something not Australian. But the fern flag is not it. Vote No but please in a year or two have another go at some flag design that is symbolic, distinctive and lovable.
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Moz,
For me, the hassle of changing the flag outweighs any sense that the alternatives are less awful than the current flag.
One obvious solution is voting to change Australia's flag instead. I'm sure the two merchant bankers could sit down together and come up with whatever Malcolm wants. That would solve the "just like Australia" problem.
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I feel about the flag debate about how I feel about purchases of clothing or paint color. Which is that it's impossible to be rational. The whole thing is opinion and feeling. Of course it matters. Some clothes look better than others and you probably want those, but the process of choosing is so fucking arbitrary that I seldom have any time for it.
The difference between flags and clothes is that I have to wear clothes, so I have to choose. I don't have to wave a flag. I never have waved the NZ flag, nor flown it, so I abstain from this choice. This is a job for flag wavers. Do as you will, I just don't care. Please don't spend too much more money.
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I'm voting to keep our current flag for lots of reasons: it does have history, the process for change has been inadequate as you say and the proposed new design looks like something that has been cut and pasted up after the results of some polling have been studied. Compromise, sop to different groups etc etc To me it looks lame and uninspiring. That said I'll be honest and say I'm not a flaggy person: no badge on my lapel, no flagpole on my house etc (that feels so American). I'm more interested in how we operate as a country - our national ethos if you like. I'd like a bit more public discussion on that, (and whether we become a republic) before we worry about flags.
And I am happy if John Key's vanity project is rejected, don't like what the man is doing to how our country operates both at home and abroad. -
Rob Stowell, in reply to
The thing I dislike about the proposed flag is the silver fern being the symbol of our "kiwi myth" - that's so linked in the marketing of our sport teams - and I'm a sports nut - but I don't want to minimise New Zealand to that - we are much much more
That's exactly my feeling. I'm alienated by the insistence the silver fern must mean a lot to me. I enjoy watching sport, but it's not a core part of my identity as a kiwi. Not even close.
Land and culture. Both are absent from the Lockwood flag. This vacuity cuts deep. I'd like to change the flag. But can't vote for it. -
The flag is supposed to be a symbol of the nation it represents but ours became a logo. We had no discussion about New Zealand, but plenty of chatter about the design of the flag itself.
To echo Keith's point, we are doing this the wrong way round.
I'll be voting for the current flag even though I despise it because conversely, once we've changed our flag we rule out the possibility of a second change for a generation at least.
If we keep the current flag we can revisit this whole issue again and hopefully in the timeframe discussed here.
Sadly I suspect we'll have a debate about becoming a republic when the Queen dies and I fully expect sentiment to rule the day and we'll press on being the last outpost of the empire, but that's another fight for another day.
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Like many, I would like a new flag, but not THAT one. For me the silver fern is about sport and marketing, not a national symbol I can identify with. And Red Peak was still too red, white and blue for me.
I hoped for a design that would represent the landscape of this country, hopefully appealing to all as showing what it is like to live HERE. For me that is the sea, forests and mountains = horizontal blue, green and white bands in a well-designed arrangement.
Gets away from sport, colonial history baggage and any marketing emblems - not about our society, but about our PLACE.
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A lot of the support for the Lockwood flag seems to be centred around what it isn't rather than what it is. Lots of comments mention getting rid of the Union Jack, not many (that I have seen) focus on it actually being a good symbol of NZ.
I've been in favour of changing the flag for years, but I'll be voting to keep the status quo in March.
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George Darroch, in reply to
That flag is the flag of the independent Kingdom of Hawaii.
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here here - I want a new flag, I want the Union Jack gone - but not this flag and not this way, by a committee of those most unsuited for the task, and not that shade of National blue - I'm voting "no" too and not because I want to keep the current flag.
My favourite flag at the moment is simply the existing flag with the union jack gone, I don't understand why that wasn't in the last ballot, it would have won hands down, maybe that was why
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My thoughts, TL;DR: yes to changing the flag, no to a maple-leaf-designed-by-committee with all the vapidity of a Jersey Shore episode.
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Ewan Morris, in reply to
That flag is the flag of the independent Kingdom of Hawaii.
It was, but it's also been appropriated as the flag of the US state of Hawai'i. Despite this, it is still used by many Native Hawaiians as an assertion of Hawaiian sovereignty.
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I let Mr. 7 guide me in the first ballot and may yet do that again, it’s going to be his flag really, not mine.*
As a twelve year immigrant and “professional Welshman” I have a flag of my own, that I have yet to relinquish.
The debate about New Zealand is urgently needed and should always have come before any flag. The last class photo including my wee man definitely placed him in the minority, which I believe would come as a shock to many here on the North Shore.
As for Waitangi day, New Zealanders should debate, celebrate and remember as they wish. As far as I can see the treaty is a living document and part of an ongoing debate. On the one hand things can and always should be better (no Maori shouldn’t need to be grateful). On the other hand, looking at Canada, Australia, and even my beautiful Wales, the New Zealand approach seems to me to be unique and in some respects more successful. So perhaps new Zealanders should at least pause briefly to celebrate the ability to do it their way and the extraordinary grace that must have been extended in order to bring this about.
So my vote would perhaps have gone to a flag that reflected the graciousness and originality that New Zealand is capable fostering.
BTW. The Welsh Flag represents a principality, which is apparently why no part of it appears in the Union Jack. With this in mind I’ll have a chat with my people if NZ ever wants to borrow it ;-)
*He picked Red Peak
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Best outcome is that the current flag wins, but only just. Therefore the narrative can focus on there being a general appetite for changing the flag, but not to this design.
This may mean I vote for the new flag. Even though I hate it.
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New wrapping for the same contents...
I still can't see any point in changing nothing but the flag?
It will still represent the same system, change that and then you have a reason to change the flag - don't just change it because John Key no longer likes it.But he does like half doing things badly, as we in Chchch can testify,
and this is all he has to say about that:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/77120618/john-key-outlines-christchurch-quake-damage-issues"If you look at it, there's just about three or four things that need to be resolved," Key said.
"No, not all are government's issue, but the convention centre has to get resolved, so does the metro sports centre."The New Zealand Council for Infrastructure Development had criticised the convention centre project, saying it was not a competitive process and the Government was unclear about its scope and budget.
"That's a cheery assessment from them," Key said in response.
"The challenge for the Government is making sure we get value for money – it's about the ongoing running of the convention centre and making sure it's fit for purpose."
If the process was rushed the city could end up with something that was not to the right scale or that taxpayers had paid too much for, Key said.The man is well deluded...
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linger, in reply to
Best outcome is that the current flag wins, but only just. […] This may mean I vote for the new flag. Even though I hate it.
Seriously, don’t indulge in that kind of gaming – because the worst outcome is that the Weetbix flag wins … but only just.
If you hate the new flag, vote against it. Period. -
Steve Barnes, in reply to
*He picked Red Peak
Am I too late for the flag design game?
I drawered Red Beak...
:-D -
linger, in reply to
good grief, it's Laser Red Peak!
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
The process was rushed and the city will end up with something that was not to the right scale or that taxpayers had paid too much for, Key said.
See what happens when you get rid of proof readers?.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
Laser Red Peak!
Likes it we does.
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Actually Ritchie McCaw's position may be quite right. Change the flag to something not Australian.
With due respect to McCaw, out of the million or so arguments for changing the flag that has to be the worse. If anyone is so confused by a scrap of fabric they think he's an ex-Wallaby and Australia won the last two Rugby World Cups the issue isn't our flag, it's game day pre-loading.
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Just a comment in respect of "King Charles of New Zealand":
Charles is only unpopular be cause he is not handsome and his ears stick out way too much and his parents did not get them cosmetically changed when he was a boy, poor chap.
He cares about the environment and shows it in words and some actions. He is the "most progressive" of the British Royal Family ever.
Presidents around the world do not inspire me to think that getting rid of this harmless figurehead for an elected one is a good idea.
Re the Flag: it is historic for this country and looks quite good flying.
I would have preferred something along the Hunderwasser one, but certainly 'PLACE" is what it should represent some day when or if we are a Republic.
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