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Speaker: The Government lost the election

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  • Katharine Moody, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    Quite a strong rebuttal! But I would be very interested in any scientific polling of knowledge of MMP.

    Certainly not scientific, but over many years I've gained a bit of anecdotal understanding as I teach bachelor degree candidates in both the humanities and the sciences on the history of environmental law in New Zealand.

    I find very little is understood about the origins and progress of the concept of democracy, and even less about the form of our own Parliamentary democracy - and even less again about how laws are made and amended. And that's before I even get to anything to do with our electoral system (which I don't get into because I'm not teaching core civics - I'm just trying to provide some context to law making and the inputs from civil society that have shaped environmental law).

    To my mind, civics education is desperately needed here. Civics is not politics - two different subjects to my mind. Civics is about forms of governance and public participation in decision-making; whereas politics is about ideological expressions/premises.

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 774 posts Report Reply

  • Mr Mark, in reply to Matthew Hooton,

    2014 New Zealand Election Study
    Party or Electorate vote more important ?

    Party vote more important 56%
    (2011 = 42%) (2005 = 58%)

    Equally important 25%
    (2011 = 38%) (2005 = 30%)

    Electorate vote more important 10%
    (2011 = 9%) (2005 = 6%)

    Don't know 10%
    (2011 = 12%) (2005 = 6%)

    Wellington • Since Dec 2009 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to Mr Mark,

    That’s disturbing, and certainly supports a need for public education, though to be fair, “importance” is a value judgement with more than one dimension, and even in the intended narrow sense of “importance for determining makeup of Parliament” may depend on local circumstances. In 2014, voters in at least four electorates key to potentially including minor parties (Internet-Mana/Maori/UF/ACT) might legitimately have considered their electorate vote more important than their party vote in terms of its possible effect on makeup of Parliament.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1786 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    That’s disturbing, and certainly supports a need for public education, though to be fair, “importance” is a value judgement with more than one dimension, and even in the intended narrow sense of “importance for determining makeup of Parliament” may depend on local circumstances.

    I like that you said that. Public education could also have verified meaning. The usual is a television, radio and internet add campaigns. The education would need to go beyond just that. Which gets us into another round of political arguments about spending again.

    Or this could be something children bring home from school at no extra cost.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3990 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Auto correct:(

    In the interest of being listened to, what I was trying to say is that saying the public needs education about the electoral system is easy. How to do that needs many more words. My experience at an alternative secondary school, was helpful. We ran the school democratically. There are some schools doing that now to some extent. Wellington high, I believe, Is reasonable about running the school as a democracy. But there are plenty of secondary schools that are are way out of alignment with how our society operates.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3990 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to steven crawford,

    Wellington high, I believe, Is reasonable about running the school as a democracy. But there are plenty of secondary schools that are are way out of alignment with how our society operates.

    not to mention universities. from conception most universities have had democratic impulses - being run by communities of scholars. alas, no more. the corporate university has no time for such niceties.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2068 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    dirty politics keeps on unwinding https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/10/04/51558/whaleoil-ex-mp-pr-man-to-face-jury-trial
    this is a key moment: good chance the paid character assassination gets a thorough exposure to sunlight.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2068 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to steven crawford,

    I think there's a reasonable argument for lowering the voting age if it were to mean that many people's first election was when they were still in a school environment.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1119 posts Report Reply

  • Trevor Nicholls, in reply to izogi,

    if it were to mean that many people's first election was when they were still in a school environment

    got to eliminate the charter schools first then!

    Wellington, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 298 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    dirty politics keeps on unwinding

    Worth it for the photo caption :-D

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2868 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Fran O'Sullivan confirms business interests have been campaigning post-election for a Nats+Greens 'teal deal'.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19481 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Sacha,

    business interests have been campaigning

    When the societal scales have been tilted in your favour for what seems like at least 3 centuries with very occasional rebalancing. It gets to the point where those who have benefitted think they have a monopoly the way society is organised. But right at the moment, they need to seriously pull their head in and navel-gaze for a while. Their agenda should be considered of minor concern, very minor.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1681 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to Sacha,

    Fran O’Sullivan confirms business interests have been campaigning post-election for a Nats+Greens ‘teal deal’.

    Let's wait til 'business interests' campaign to ax the tax cuts, cut back the RONs, bring on a carbon tax, and put the money into climate change initiatives. Then (maybe - if we accept poverty in a land of plenty as just fine) there could be talks. But I'm betting it will never ever happen.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2068 posts Report Reply

  • stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz, in reply to Sacha,

    Pressure is now on the Greens from business allies to shift base

    I'd be really interested to know who these business allies of the Greens are, and what shifts they want.

    And if they are allies of the Greens, why pressure them to go with the Nats and not Labour?

    Hamilton • Since Nov 2006 • 73 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Rob Stowell,

    Let's wait til 'business interests' campaign to ax the tax cuts, cut back the RONs, bring on a carbon tax, and put the money into climate change initiatives. Then (maybe - if we accept poverty in a land of plenty as just fine) there could be talks. But I'm betting it will never ever happen.

    While O'Sullivan claims that "Pressure is now on the Greens from business allies to shift base", she's predictably coy as to who these allies might be. If the legendary bluegreens had demonstrable substance beyond their ongoing political unicorn status I'm sure that Kennedy Graham would have been rapidly reinstated weeks ago. Instead events have removed any doubt that he's anything other than the mildly charming stuffed shirt who's done sweet FA in his time with the Party beyond providing a token don't-frighten-the-chooks candidacy in Gerry Brownlee's fiefdom.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4554 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz,

    who these business allies of the Greens are

    Not sure where you got that quote from but it wasn't me.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19481 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Sacha,

    Not sure where you got that quote from but it wasn't me.

    It's from the story you provided a link to - third line from the end.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4554 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    sorry, hadn't spotted that.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19481 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz,

    who these business allies of the Greens are

    Nearest organisation I can think of would be the Sustainable Development Council. Here's their pre-election wishlist (1.8MB PDF). Nothing on their website about the Green party though.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19481 posts Report Reply

  • Katharine Moody, in reply to Sacha,

    Wellington • Since Sep 2014 • 774 posts Report Reply

  • tussock, in reply to linger,

    Uh, just to note, a lot of people's Electorate Votes are more important than their Party Vote, certainly in previous elections, the representation of the Māori Party, Mana Party, United Future, and ACT were dependant on them winning electorate seats for most of their existence.

    Few less this time, but their lack of representation also comes down to people's Electorate Votes (the Labour-Green electorate deal got rid of United Future, for instance).

    I'm not sure it's 10% of people in that situation, but given that 96% of people who answer surveys agree they are not already dead while doing so, it's probably close enough. As long as we have the 5% threshold, some people's electorate votes will remain more important than their party vote.

    Your electorate vote is also important for getting a local MP who isn't a terrible person sometimes, which might be a nice thing for some people.

    Since Nov 2006 • 587 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to tussock,

    Agree entirely. Thought I’d made the same points, actually (perhaps too obliquely?): (i) that in some electorates (equating to ~5% of voters in 2014) the “right” answer was indeed that the electorate vote was more “important” (where it determined whether one of four minor parties would be included at all); and (ii) there were other possible reasons for thinking the electorate vote at least as “important” — such as the one you state: wanting a local representative who’s not a total douchetard. Though that’s more complex: depending on list rankings and overall party vote share, it might not matter how you cast your electorate vote, both the aforementioned douchetard and your preferred representative might still get in.
    (…Hm, douchetard … is that a word? meh, should be… :-)
    But regarding (ii): if the context of the question defined “important” more narrowly, then, even given (i), about 30% of the responses would arguably be wrong.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1786 posts Report Reply

  • linger, in reply to linger,

    buggrit, ran out of editing time:

    wrong

    in the sense of showing incomplete understanding of the system.
    ["Don't know" responses presumably should be included in that category.]

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1786 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    Attachment

    Virtually every commentator in the country has been calling the two seat transfer from special votes, but Audrey Young is shocked... Shocked, I tell you.

    Was there ever a scenario where National somehow gained seats? Only in Audrey's imagination or some bizarre alternative universe.

    To be fair, the story doesn't match the headline. But that didn't stop the Herald running this nonsense as the lead story on their site.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1338 posts Report Reply

  • linger,

    Footnote: as expected, not enough nett swing to change the result in the Māori electorates. The specials instead further favoured Labour candidates, except in Te Tai Hauāuru, where Adrian Paki Rurawhe's majority over Howie Tamati decreased slightly (to just 1,039). That's how agonisingly close they came to getting in; and if they had, they were only just under the party vote level required for two seats.

    Tokyo • Since Apr 2007 • 1786 posts Report Reply

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